Welcome to David Behavior, a horror book review podcast. I'm Beth.

I'm Marie.

And I'm Caius.

And today's David Behavior is Supernatural Gay Clockwork Oranges, and then music support your local bookstore. You can do that by purchasing a physical copy or by using Libro FM to pick up an audiobook. It's also available on Libby or at your local library. And what it is is Camp Damascus. And today we have a special guest and dear friend on the podcast to talk about Camp Damascus by Chuck Tingle.

Hi, guys.

Who are you?

Who are you?

What are you doing here? How did you get into this room?

Sorry, I am holding both of you hostage. Hi. I am unfortunately a podcaster myself.

We're all at Camp Damascus right now.

Yeah, this is our clockwork oranging.

Yeah, so I have a podcast out with my friends Max, Mike, Lucas and Jan. It's called 9 millimeter retirement radio. It's an actual play podcast using the Delta Green system, which is like Lovecraftian horror meets the US Government. And for us, you know, it's set in the 1980s. I also am just gay. And.

And how. He literally pulled out a rainbow colored Glock and was like, if you don't let me talk about Camp Damascus, I will get the gay agenda to come after you. And I was like, I'm gay. You can't do this to me.

Lateral violence for sure.

But no, no, we're so happy to have you here. Obviously, the gay was a big part of it.

Can you tell me a little more?

Yeah.

Exactly what. What drew you to Camp Damascus specifically?

So I, first of all, I searched gay horror books and it showed up. But also part of it is that I, for a very long time thought that Chuck Tingle was a graphic designer that made funny book covers for fake books.

Oh, I love that.

And it's only the last, like maybe year or two that I found out, oh, he's actually writing these books and they're actually published. They are.

They are very published. For those of you in the audience who may not know, Mr. Chuck Tingle is typically a writer of very fun erotica with incredibly hilarious names and book covers, but he has more recently ventured into actual novels versus, like, shorter stories that he's been doing for his erotica, including obviously Camp Damascus, which is a gay horror story.

Yeah. So I was like, well, I saw his name pop up in the variety of Reddit posts that I was looking at and just threw it at y' all and was like, what? We're going to. We're going to do One of these, I don't know.

Tell you.

I think the choices are between Camp Damascus and his most recent book, Bury youy Gaze. And I figured we'd start with like the first of the two novels and kind of.

I think Bury youy Gaze is an anthology anyway.

Is it? Okay, well then it is not.

Is it not?

It is not. It is about a guy who is a TV producer, I believe.

Oh, okay. So it's just. It has a variety of audiobooks. Readers. I wasn't sure.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's like fully acted out, I think in the audiobook. Like a radio play kind of thing.

Okay, that explains it then. Amazing.

But yeah. So I guess. Beth, could you give us a short description of this book?

I sure can. Camp Damascus is a book about Rose Darling who is autistic and gay and she is also super Christian but vaguely non denominational or fake. Denominational Christian.

Yeah, it's a.

It's.

It's a custom religion made by custom Chuck Tingle custom build.

Religion and in a fake town with a fake church and a fake conversion camp.

To be clear, the. In. In the context of the book, it's all real. It's just that Chuck Tingle made all.

Of those, those things fictional.

Usually. We.

Well, yeah, this is the documentary podcast. Right.

Like we read nonfiction, we read non fiction.

I. I'm saying because there's an easy read in this where you start reading the book and you go, oh, everything's fake. This is a fake town.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's that the things were made up potentially based on real things, but it's not about a particular religion or a particular.

Well, it is about Christianity, but it's not.

Yeah, right.

He doesn't get too in the weeds about, you know, a specific denomination. He's just kind of talking about American Christianity.

Yes. And she figures out what's going on at the camp and has an adventure. That's the spoiler free version. That is the spoiler.

We are still in the spoiler free section.

So.

Yeah. Who would you say this book is for? Beth?

Who is this book for? I think it's pretty light horror. I would say that if you are googling gay horror, this is a very good one to start with. It's um. I'd say it's pretty accessible in that way. I think it's for. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to say it's for anyone, but I think it's not very specific. I think if you enjoy horror in general. I don't Know if it's for you. If you enjoyed Chuck Tingle's other work.

His writing style is very similar. So if you enjoy his writing style and want something that's not just erotica or he also writes platonic romance, if.

You'Re looking for erotica, you will not find it here.

Exactly.

I'll put it that way.

The author of Harriet Porber is not necessarily one that is writing extremely subtle narratives.

Exactly, exactly. And what about, what about you, Caius? Who would you recommend this book to?

I think I would. I would recommend this to. Honestly, it's fun. If you have religious trauma, it might be a little upsetting, but it's still enjoyable as long as you know what you're getting into. You know, people that are familiar with what it is like to be gay in the US Especially, it'll hit.

Yeah, I'd agree with both of you. I would also say this book, I. People who enjoy fast paced reads think we'll enjoy this more. It's not, it doesn't, it doesn't take its time building up, which I appreciate personally. I like how quick it was to get through. And also those who are looking for like you both have mentioned, like kind of a cathartic examination of religion in America and the difference between like a religion and faith and also with a focus on found families and an intersection of queer and neurodivergent identities.

Yeah, it's a good weekend read, I would say.

Absolutely. Before we get too far into this, I do also want to say that like we in no way we're going to be making fun of religious extremism in this episode. Most likely we're going to be calling out the behaviors of the people in Rose's lives throughout this book which as Caius mentioned, religious trauma is a trigger warning for this. However, we're not, you know, out here calling out anybody who has a faith. It's just this type of faith, this type of extremism, this type of putting others down in order to raise your cult up basically that we are going to be criticizing.

Yeah, I firmly believe there is a difference between faith and what is discussed in this book and the book. You know, not to get too into it, but it does go into that difference and talk about the nuance of whether to still like, I don't know, we can't. I don't think I'm trying to not do spoilers.

Well, back of the book, we pretty clearly know that this is a conversion camp. So like, yeah, it is. Talking about the effects of conversion camps and the Effects of fate on the faith of those who are forced.

Exactly. Precisely.

Yep. Yeah. Institutions versus the faith itself.

Exactly.

Great. So with that in mind, what other media would you recommend?

So I have three that kind of connect in different ways to the text. They are not. I would not recommend these movies as a, like, marathon. It would be an interesting marathon. Let's just say that. So my first recommendation is But I'm a Cheerleader, directed by Jamie Babbitt, and it has that conversion camp connection. It's comedic, it's fun. It's a great movie. You'll have a great time, I promise.

It's the first gay movie that I ever watched, and it changed my life.

I love me, too.

A GSA in my middle school.

That's so good. I love that. The next movie that I would recommend is Hellraiser, directed and written by Clive Barker. The body horror that there is in this, in Camp Damascus is kind of akin to the body horror from Hellraiser. And also, Clive Barker is incredibly gay, and his work is inherently incredibly gay when you look at it. So obviously I recommend that. And I recommend trying to do, like, a queer reading when you are watching the movie. And then my final recommendation is Bound, directed by the Wachowski sisters, and it is a lesbian love story that actually has a happy ending. Oftentimes in movies when you have a couple of gays who meet and fall in love, one of them is going to be dead by the end of the movie. This is not one of those cases.

Would you call it an hea?

I would call it an hea. Just for you, Beth. Just for you.

Incredible.

I know.

Perfect.

I've come so far. I've evolved as a person since the last episode. One person said that they agreed that HEA is a term, and that's all I need. Our audience has spoken.

Amazing. What about you guys?

Yeah. So I have seven recommendations. I'll try to go through them pretty quickly. My first recommendation is 1984 Julia by Sandra Newman, which is a feminist and queer retelling of Orwell's 1984. It tells a far more nuanced story and a far more female one that I think that readers of this book would appreciate. In a completely different vein, Dante's Divine Comedy, particularly Inferno, which is its first cantica, it comes up in this book, and it. It is a, like, fundamental piece of, like, the canon, so to speak. And it. It is good to know.

It's. It's. I honestly, I really agree. It's great to know. And also, I just love the Fact that it is, it is literally fanfic. It's Bible fanfic by Dante and he puts all his haters in hell. And it's fantastic. And you should definitely read it.

Like a shit ton of popes and priests too. It's. And then a deep cut is. And Beth, you'll have to help me with this. Les Songs Drolatiques de Pantagruel, I think, which is the Drolotic Dreams of Pantagruel. It's a 1565, like post medieval picture book of wood cut engravings with 120 illustrations of demons. They are all supposed to be jokes, but they're jokes we don't understand. So it's just kind of fun and unsettling. You can find it online pretty easily.

I love that Kaya says this is why we brought you here because no one else would ever bring that as a recommendation. And yeah, like Beth just said, there will be a link to the online version in the show notes.

And then I'm just gonna rapid fire some movies. Hook the 1991 version, 1993's the Truman Show, Ginger Snaps 2000 and Superhot 2021. All good.

I've seen all of those and they're all fantastic except for Superhot. What is. What is super hot?

A pizza delivery girl discovers her neighbor is moving into a sorority house of vampires. It's a race against the clock to stop her crush from being sacrificed at midnight. It is very gay. Van Helsing. It's very fun. I think it is delightful.

Yeah. To my to watch list right now on letterboxd.

We're gonna watch it because it's so fun and so, so funny. And I think it's like produced by just a group of friends, which makes it even better.

Nice.

All right, I've added it to the gay list. Oh, yeah, sorry.

Amazing.

You now give.

As for me, my 2 inspired by KA's list is songs of Innocence and Songs Songs of Experience by William Blake. They're poems and just general religious themes. They're good. He was suffering from syphilis when he wrote them, so they're like kind of.

Unhinged, which is fun narrative.

The other one is Carmilla, which I.

Feel like I love Carmilla so much.

Yeah. I feel like that's a gimme, but predated Dracula and it's great and it's very gay. Yeah. Gay vampire.

Gay vampire.

I don't think there are any heterosexual vampires.

That's true. I feel like once you become a vampire, you like automatically kind of slide down the middle of the scale and at least become bisexual.

Yeah.

Like you transcend gender and exactly everything. Like you just. And I. I should know because I'm from Romania.

Oh, okay. Yeah, we got it. We got it here. The facts. Yeah.

Can verify. Transylvanians are all gay.

All gay.

All vampires for saying that.

All right, so what is our experience with the book, Marie?

Me. All right, so this is not my first experience with Mr. Tingle's works, but it is my first experience with his horror offerings. I have previously read a few of his Tinglers slammed in the butthole by my concept of linear time and absolutely no thoughts of pounding during my fun day with this kind T. Rex because I'm aromantic and asexual and. And that's a wonderfully valid way to prove that love is real. Are two standouts for me.

Is you Fiona Apple memeing an album? That's a deep cut.

Where am I for Apple heads out there?

I missed the wonderful joke. I'm sure it was great, but because I had read those, at least those two, which are standouts. And a couple more. I was familiar with his writing style and I knew that I enjoyed, like, his voice generally before I went into Camp Damascus. I really enjoyed the book. I did the audio version narrated by Mara Wilson, and I personally really enjoyed her narration. I felt like her characterization of Rose helped loop me in more than just the ebook did. I had already purchased Bury youy Gaze before I even finished Camp Damascus because it was well on its way to being a really highly rated read for me. And then my experience. This is a book. I kind of alluded to it earlier with how direct and fast paced it is. This book really, like, wears everything on its sleeve. It is not interested in being subtle, is not interested in being overly metaphorical. So that could be a detractor for some readers. But I really enjoyed how in your face and unapologetic it was and how it helped me kind of connect with Rose's characterization more.

What about you guys?

Yeah, so I am. I enjoy horror quite a lot, but I am sort of now starting to. I connect with Rose on this. Adulthood has been my period of, like, actually engaging with popular culture. Like, if Marie mentions a movie nine times out of ten, I have not seen it. And the one time out of ten they have music to me or it's the Sound of Music, which, like, yeah. So, you know, I'm working on getting into horror. This was a, like, a fun read of the horror that I've read. It's like maybe the Fourth horror novel that I've ever read, which is fun. I'm used to works that I read and things that I write myself being very heavy with, like, metaphor and symbolism. And I personally write a lot of surrealism, so this was a new style for me. Tingle is super concise, super to the point. He does not go on long, illustrative tangents. He's just like, yeah, shit sucks, and we're gonna use a gun, and that's it. Which is great. I thought it was a lot of fun. It took a little bit of adjusting, too. But once I did, I was like, oh, cool. Sick. This is just the voice that he has. It didn't feel too overbearing. I liked the pacing for this because I think it's very easy for works with a heavy tone to feel really weighty and to feel like a slog to get through. Even if you love the subject matter, especially things having to do with, like, trauma, religious trauma, like conversion therapy. Like, these are heavy, heavy, heavy topics. And topics that, like, personally usually would be pretty triggering. But because of the way he writes, it moves very quickly. It's very to the point. You don't sit in it for too long. So it's still impactful, but it's not painful, I guess, is how I would phrase that.

I would agree with that. Yeah. The way that he writes and makes it kind of easier to deal with the topics at hand. He doesn't linger on things in a. I don't know, like. I don't know. It doesn't wallow, like you said. It doesn't. It's not bogged down by the subject.

Yeah. In the few moments where he does linger, it really, really, really matters. And then he moves on. And I like that pacing. I found it interesting. It's not something that I write and it's not something I tend to read, but it worked really well here.

Kalya. And what about you, Beth? What was your experience?

I was familiar with Chuck Tingle from the Memes. I had not read anything by him before. It's a bit intimidating to sit down to read a novel that you assume is a meme novel, but the fact that it's, like, real is also kind of weird. So I had never felt compelled.

That's so valid and fair.

I'm also, like, very picky about the romance slash erotica that I read. That's also extremely so valid and fair, picky. So I didn't necessarily trust the covers. I did judge a book by its cover in this case. So I have not read any of those particular novels. But my experience with this book was very similar, very fast paced. I have issues with the second half, but we can talk about it when it comes to it. I think maybe it's a consequence of the first person narrative, but that's fair. Yeah, I think that the Voice was very authentic. Yeah, I liked the Voice and the writing style was very approachable.

And I do want to say if you are at all interested in Mr. Tingle's other works, they're. They're in Mr. Tingle. I really like calling him Mr. Tingle because I think it's really funny. In, like, 2018 or thereabouts, Night Vale Presents did a release for a short time of some of his works, narrated by different, like, Night Vale alumni and stuff. It's called Pounded in the Butt by my own podcast.

That's where I had heard of it, actually, because I was listening to Night Vale and I was like, oh, yeah, that's why I knew him from.

But so if you're interested in hearing some of Mr. Tingle's more erotic works on Spotify and you can listen to several of them for free on there without having to purchase any audiobooks or anything.

I feel very alone in the fact that I do not read erotica. I rarely ever read romance, only if it's, like, sprung on me and I'm surprised by it.

So, no, that's. That's super valid. And I don't seek out erotica generally myself. I'm just. I love romance. I love romance novels. However, I do skim the part. I love the romance and the story around it, but I usually just like, kind of skim over the. The more sexy sections of the book. But I think a lot of the issue, it's, what's that saying, the tree remembers the blow, but the ax doesn't, or whatever. It's. It's. It's kind of hard for people to understand sometimes that, like, religious trauma can still result, even if you don't have, like, a necessarily super, like, scary religion that you're a part of. Because, like, when you're a little kid and you learn, like, if you're bad, you're going to hell, that's horrifying. As a child, even if you have an otherwise wonder, like, deep connection with your faith and you love it, it's just there's that inner little bit of horror that tends to be a part of these organized religions that I think traumatizes kids. And it's hard because as a parent, they're probably just like, I want to share my Faith and, like, my love with my child. And why would they end up traumatized by it? And it's like, well, because it's scary.

And I think it's like, even for people that have had really negative experiences in, like, in the church or with faith leaders, that doesn't mean that you can't still have a good relationship with the religion or go to church or have a relationship with God or what have you. It just means that, like, there is some difficulty steeped in that. It doesn't delegitimize the faith itself.

Before we get into the CW and before we get into spoilers, would you recommend this book, Beth?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think I made a very general recommendation in the who is this for? Section. I definitely think it's worth reading. Like I said, I have issues with the second half, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't take away from the general experience of reading the book for me.

All right. And what about you, Caius?

I. I would. I mean, I. This is not like the pinnacle of fiction and horror media and queer commentary, but it's a fun read. It is, I think, a worthwhile read, especially if you're new to these types of themes or if you just want to kick back and read about them in a way that doesn't, you know, like I said earlier, it doesn't feel too harrowing. So, yeah, I definitely recommend this.

The fact that it kind of pulls its punches a bit, makes it a bit more, I guess, sanitary, a bit more accessible. Yeah.

And I do wonder with it because when we get into it, there are some very visceral, like, body horror descriptions. There are some moments of, like, a real visceral, emotional look at things. And I can't help but wonder if Chuck Tingle did intentionally pull those punches because he knew that he was writing about something that is deeply traumatic for a lot of people, so he didn't want to make it unapproachable.

Yeah, for sure.

And if it isn't obvious, I do recommend this book. I highly recommend this book. If you're a fan of horror in general, I recommend this book. If you're gay, I recommend this book. If you have religious trauma and you want to, like, read about someone like you. I just. I highly recommend it. It's a fun, light read, but it does come with some content warnings. So I want to give content warnings for gaslighting, homophobia, religious trauma, misogyny, conversion therapy, body horror, bugs, suicide mention, and ableism. And those are kind of sprinkled throughout there's no major focus like in. Like Caius was saying. It doesn't feel weighted down by these topics, but they are all touched on and they are all present at some point throughout the book.

Alrighty, are we ready to get into the spoiler section?

Yeah, let's talk about it.

We open at the swimming hole.

The way you just said that.

So we open at the swimming hole, and Rose is trying to get some hole.

Stop.

Rose. Rose is too brain washed at this point, and her brain's so clean, so scrubbed.

Her shadow's so small.

Her shadow's so small. But, yeah, no, yeah, we're at the swimming hole.

So we're at the swimming hole with some members of the Kingdom of the Pine, her bff, Martina, and her other bff, who is a boy who's. Oh, Isaiah. Yeah, he's really not important.

He's not important. Except to kind of start your hint at what's going on with Rose. I will also say Martina is not a member of the Kingdom of the Pine.

She is secular.

Secular, which Rose finds extremely intriguing. And also kind of scary, which I. I. Rose from the start is so. She's just a little cinnamon bun. I love her so much.

I think it's. It's like all the secular, quote unquote, people are still Christian throughout.

Yeah, they're a Christian. They're just not from the pine.

Not from their, like, extremist sect.

So Martina has seen Peter Pan on, like, Rose Darling.

I feel very oblivious. I didn't get that theming at all. The shadow thing at the end, I was like, oh, okay. I'm sure there's something going on here that I didn't catch when I was listening to it. And to be fair, I made this note before, but I should not listen to books for this podcast. I feel like I should not do audiobooks.

That's right.

I feel like I don't listen very closely when I'm doing it because I make the mistake of thinking I can do other things at the same time.

Yeah. And I think everyone processes differently when it comes to, like, media retention and stuff. For me, listening, I do tend to retain quite a bit. But I do retain better if I read the book and make notes as I go, like, with my eyeballs. But, you know, I like audiobooks.

No, I like them. I just. I need to also read it.

Yeah.

For me, it oscillates between, like, and. I'm autistic. So, like, between what Sense. I can stand getting overloaded. So I listen to audiobooks when my eyes Hurt. And I listen and I read books with my eyes when if I hear a noise, I will cry. So for this. For this book, I read it.

Yeah. So we're at the swimming hole, right?

Yes.

And Rose is. It's her first time, right?

No.

Yes.

Is it.

It's her first time jumping. She's been there before. She's never jumped before.

That's right. She jumped this time. She went with Isaiah, and she was like, what a great friend he is.

What a wonderful platonic friend I have here, who I love platonically as my brother in Christ.

How nice of. How nice of him to hold my hand for comfort even though I don't need it.

Yeah.

At all. I'm great. I'm gonna jump on my own. But it's so nice that he thinks that he needs to comfort me.

Yeah.

Let me stare at Martina the whole time.

Let me ponder Martina exiting the water and looking so cool. It's. She's so cool. That's all it is. It's just that she's very cool and not extremely hot.

The water dripping off of her is. It's just great and cool.

I love it so much.

It definitely gives that, like, gay baby feeling of looking at people and being like, ah, I want to be just like them. And it takes, you know, 10 years for you to realize, oh, no, I wanted to do some other things.

Exactly. And I also. I will touch on this probably as we go, but at. At the beginning when I was reading this, I assumed that rose was, like, 15, 16, like, you know, maybe. Maybe in her senior year, maybe closer to 17. But I read her as. As very young and having not yet really gone through any sort of, like, sexual awakening or anything, which, I mean, as we come to find out later, was probably on purpose. But I found it interesting because it was very hard to keep track of her as. Because we find out she's. She's 20. She is an adult woman, and she does not read that way at the beginning of the book.

No. Not even a little bit.

And we learned that the Kingdom of the Pines kids generally skip years, so they are older anyway. Yeah.

They have two years that they spend just doing church stuff.

Which isn't culty at all.

No. And this is also at this moment where, coincidentally, Rose is looking at Martina and thinking how cool she is that we see Paquid for the first time.

Yes.

Wearing a polo shirt, stringy hair, and nobody else seems to see her. It's a woman in the woods, like, a red polo shirt and a name tag that Says Paquid.

I love it.

Which is very unsettling, to be honest, as a. As an image.

Yeah, it really is.

To have this creepy woman in the woods with a name tag.

She's described as looking drowned, like, scraggly hair, like, hanging down and having, like, looking kind of corpse, like. And nobody else sees her, obviously. And I. I find the descriptions of the demons throughout this to be very interesting, especially in light of the last chapter, where they're always, like, standing, like, ramrod straight and wearing their perfect little polos, but also always looking so horrific at the same time. It's that contrast between their mundane outfits and their appearance.

Yeah, that's right.

It's like a sense of almost people. Like uncanny valley, for sure.

Exactly.

That's exactly it.

Her fingers are just a little too long. Her teeth are a little too sharp.

With a collar as well. She has the iron very tight around her neck.

Polo shirt. Yep. Thumbs down. Don't recommend. I don't recommend conversion therapy demons, actually.

Actually, it might not be a good call. Do some research before you or your loved ones consider conversion therapy. Demons. Oh, I was just gonna say, too. I love. Because she's thinking about Isaiah and how he's being a little weird and stuff, but I love that as soon as, like, she hits the water and kind of goes under, she kind of gets lost in her own thoughts for a little bit, then is able to kind of forget about that. I just. I really love the way that Rose's inner world is kind of touched on throughout the book. And I love her fun facts that she is constantly telling herself, mostly in her head and sometimes out loud to others, to, like, keep her focused and keep her kind of grounded in the moment. She'll, like, think about an interesting scientific fact or something that she learned that's mildly related to what's going on. And I just. I really enjoy that about her.

I love it because it's very relatable and it could very easily. I like that it's science facts, which I know is a lot of people's hyper fixation. I feel like for a lot of other people, it's culture. What's the phrase I'm looking for?

Pop culture.

Pop culture. Oh, my God, my brain. It's pop cult pop culture facts instead. Just things. That word association. Something reminds you of something else, and then you're kind of like, in your own head about it.

And instead she just brings up Cotard syndrome, which I. I knew when she brought it up, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, same. I also did A lot of research on that.

Yeah. Incredible. So Isaiah kindly drives her home as a friend.

As a friend. It's a good friend, Carolyn, platonically.

And he's being weird, but he is being extremely weird.

And she's been experiencing, like, chills and stuff lately. Weirdly, I feel like it's associated with hanging out with Martina for some reason.

So weird and so weird.

So she like, blasts the heater and he's. He's kind of like, could we not have it be like 90 degrees in the driveway? So funny.

Yep. And as they get to Rose's house, Isaiah tries to kiss her. And she does not see it coming in any way whatsoever and is like, no, thank you.

And it's very awkward. He punches his truck afterwards, which. Gross. That made me instantly lose any sympathy I had with him before.

Super disconcerting. It feels. Felt very like that's the moment where I was like, is this the Truman show but gay? Because that's like a crazy reaction from. We learn, you know, like, they're not teenagers. They're in their 20s.

Yeah.

So fucking uncomfortable.

100%. Well, and I found. And I, I. Well, I disapprove, obviously, of a violent reaction like that. We do come to find out from her parents kind of cajoling her during dinner that there's basically been an unspoken agreement between her parents and his parents that they're courting, essentially, and she had no idea that this was happening. And I feel like I don't like Isaiah and I don't agree with his reaction, but I get where, like, maybe he had an idea that it was an actual, like, thing that she knew about this whole time, and she was just like, nope. What do you. You talking about?

Yeah, because their families were close and things like that.

So, yeah, you see this in Christian communities where, yeah, like, these kinds of arranged marriages happen. It's just overlooked because. Oh, well, they're white. Discussion of arranged marriages tends to be very racist.

It's not as weird when it's not an Indian couple. That's me being sarcastic. That's me being very sarcastic for. For the record.

Right, but that's treated. Yeah, it is.

It is treated cult.

Culturally.

Culturally. But yeah. No, and it's. This is kind of where it started for me with realizing that Chuck Tingle was not writing about a specific denomination. He was making his own denomination to kind of put into the book. Because there were moments like this with the whole arranged, like, setting up between the families that felt very Mormon Latter Day Saints, like, that sort of vibe. Because I have Obviously seen and heard from people within Latter Day Saints where, like, it's normal for parents to, like, set up a very common courting. Yeah.

Informal agreements between the family. Exactly.

So it. I realized, because he also brings in a lot of what feels like Catholic imagery and. And prayers and stuff. And then also obviously the evangelical Protestant vibes that are being brought in for the conversion camp itself and everything.

Yeah. It's just heavy proselyzation throughout. And. And the very specific type of proselyzation that does come with, like, Protestants and evangelicals. Like, it's. Catholics did the whole Crusades. So they're not. They're not immune from.

They already did their proselyzing.

It's the vibe of, like, commercials and, like, working with technology. And look at us. We're so. We have wealth and we're beautiful and you can come and be wealthy and beautiful with Christ as well.

Exactly.

Come live in our idyllic community with our white picket fences and white families.

Their community is so interesting too. We'll get into that with a walk with her mom later. But so this evening, though, she. They eat spaghetti. They're so excited to eat spaghetti. It's. It's that I. This is so mean. It's white culture, though. It's like.

Like we're gonna be extra garlic to.

Be a little saucy.

What the fuck? It's so messed up.

That's so funny.

We meet Lisa and Luke Darling, who are the parents. And once again, I did not pick up on the Peter Pan, but, like, clearly that's like their last name is from Peter Pan.

Yeah.

And Caius, you were saying that Lisa is sort of styled after Tinkerbell, which is really interesting.

Yeah, she's exactly described as Tinkerbell. Yeah. On page 15, there's like a little bit where it reads, mom is always well put together. But this evening she's looking especially done up with a lime green dress and a string of pearls around her neck. Her makeup is less subtle than usual, a little extra red in the tone of her lips that she wouldn't dare try if we were leaving the house this evening. And her stark blonde hair is held back with a white band across the top of her head. She's a small woman, but full of energy. And tonight her natural beauty is on full display. So that's Tinkerbell.

Yeah.

I don't know how I didn't get that. That's crazy. That's exactly Tinkerbell.

It's exactly Tinkerbell.

Wild.

And I.

Which I don't get.

I also don't get it.

Although. So later on. And obviously, like, this is. This is further into the book. But when. When Rose has to make a break for it, her mom helps her in a. Like, she does as much help as she feels capable of, which I have a little commentary on that later, because we also learned that her mom, when. After her dad goes to sleep, she watches more liberal, like, pastors on TV and stuff that don't really align with the pine. What is it. What is it called?

Kingdom of.

Kingdom of the Pine.

Kingdom of the Pine. They don't really align with the, like, more fire and brimstone Kingdom of the pine teachings that the dad seems to favor. And I feel like maybe she's Tinkerbell, because if we're looking at Hook, Tink is kind of trapped by her love.

That's what I was gonna say.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was gonna say that, like, she's kind of a captive in her own right.

Yeah.

Like, she's being used for her fairy dust in that sense. But she's also, like, I don't think she's necessarily literally a captive, but like, you say, she is a captive of her love for Peter, her devotion to Peter.

Yeah. So maybe that's where that's coming from a little bit. If we. If we read a little bit more into what characterization we do get for the mom. Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Tinkerbell is resentful as well, right? Like, oh, yeah, she's pretty resentful of her devotion to Peter. Like, she's jealous of Wendy and, like, it's destructive for looking into that relationship.

Well, and then Luke, the dad, is just a piece of shit that looks like Clark Kent, which Rose is very confused about why she knows that reference. It's not something that she would have learned about in her religious upbringing.

She's never, ever looked at Superman in her life that she remembers.

Yeah. She assumes maybe it was Martina, her beautiful, beautiful friend that told her about it.

Her cool, secular friend who's a member of another church. I'm sorry. Just them describing everyone as secular is so funny to me.

Yeah. So after the dinner, the lovely, the succulent. Succulent spaghetti dinner.

Spaghetti dinner.

Isn't it, like, halfway through that it happens?

Yeah. Well, because they keep pushing her about Isaiah, and.

That's right.

Her thoughts of Martina are flaring up a little, and she's thinking about how much she is not attracted to Isaiah.

And.

She coughs up a fly and then just vomits out. Yeah. Horde of flies and spaghetti. Mom's spaghetti on her sweater. Already. Is that what's happening right now?

The thing I love the most about this is that she immediately is like. So she's trying to find a reason for this, which, like, I get. And I love that. I also love that she's trying to pinpoint the type of fly it is. It's so good. Because why would you even think to do that? And. But they're not letting her take like a sample. They're sort of cleaning it up. They're not as alarmed about it as they probably should be.

Well, I don't know if either of you clocked it, but the mom says not again.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And something that I. It. It's a fun thing that you won't notice until the second read because I'm. I'm looking at it right now and I just. My. A light bulb came over my head where Luke stops Lisa from praying.

Yeah.

Which, you know, prayer is a pretty good way to get a demon to go away.

Yeah.

So.

So it's interesting that Luke would be like, don't do that.

Yes. At that point before this though, she does describe Paki to her parents. And her parents are like, I don't know what you're talking about. Why would there be a person like that at the lake?

Yeah. There's a lot of gaslighting happening.

Yeah. Oh, speaking of gaslighting, I was going to mention the door.

Yeah.

So that's the thing that kind of prompted me talking about how Luke is a piece of shit. The thing that really enraged me was she went back to her room and her door was gone. And her dad was like, you never had a door even? Just like, look at the frame. There's no. Where would the hinges go? And she's like, I definitely had a door. And he's just like, nope. And gets mad or starts to get mad. Threatens to be mad.

Yeah.

The tension rising and it's not great.

And it, it also when he's shutting her down about. Because she's, you know, she's. She just puked up a bunch of bugs and she's like, I need to figure out like how this happened. He's like, oh, maybe you swallowed them in the water. And so she's researching because once again, this is like a self soothing thing. She's trying to figure out what happened so that she doesn't feel as freaked out about it. And he, he goes on this thing about curiosity. And I have a quote here from page 25. She's been reading about it and she's telling him what she's found so far. And he says, it's good to be thoughtful. But when the desire for more knowledge takes over your life, what you're really saying is, even in the presence of God's light, I am not full. Do you understand? Dad? Continues. It's a sin, hun. That feeling you call curiosity is fine in small doses, but when you turn it into a habit, it becomes gluttony. A hunger for knowledge is still hunger. And I nearly lost my shit. I was like, oh, this, this man, this fucking guy.

It's also one of the tenets of their religion is to not challenge authority. I can't remember what the exact quote is, but it's basically, don't talk back to authority.

Essentially, it's a tenet number two of their faith. The Bible tells of great sacrifice. But I'm not Abraham and you're not Ruth. We're on easy street. We don't have to pay money to walk in his shadow. We don't have to abandon our families. All we have to do is have faith, real faith, which by that he means blind faith. Unquestioning.

Well, there's another one too, that she keeps quoting. The fourth one.

Yeah, the fourth tenet.

Yes.

Yeah.

Let me see if I can find it real quick.

I found it. Oh, sorry, it's not the fourth. It is the first one. It's respect I will honor when I do not understand.

There you go. That's exactly it.

Yes.

So when he's talking about curiosity, that's the opposite of honoring what you do not understand.

And the way she gets spoken to by pretty much every authority figure in the church is so triggering. It just reminds me so much of, like, growing up as a queer child and, like, being told, like, we can't tell anyone because that will traumatize the whole family. Like, the way that Luke talked to her and the way. And we'll get to it, but the way that Dr. Smith talked to her, like.

And I'm obviously, I'm not trying to talk over your experience, but to add on to it. Like, I. I do find it, because you mentioned that your family on your mom's side is very, very religious. But they have come around, I find, in my experience. Not always, obviously, but it's. It's really funny how when people are encountered by something that they have been told is a sin or is wrong their entire lives, but then a family member comes to them and is like, hi, I'm gay. Like, you can either accept me as I am or we cannot talk Anymore. I guess it's amazing how many people suddenly don't have a problem with it. And I think that's good. I think that speaks to human nature and our willingness to learn and adapt as we encounter things with people that we love and care for. I just wish that they would do that just because, you know, empathy for everybody, not just direct family members.

Yeah, well, because they're told that it's the other. Right? Like that those people are those people and they are, they have these certain traits and this close person in my family doesn't have those traits. So that kind of coming together, being like, oh, wait, yeah.

It's harder to believe that, you know, that gay people are all predators when you, like, your child is gay and you know that they're not a fucking predator.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's much harder to believe that like, adult trans people are transing the kids and that the kids are mutilating themselves when you have like a trans loved one and you see how much they're flourishing after like medically researched, accurate treatment. Whether that's social transition, medical transitions, like, and whether that's hormones or surgery or whatever.

And, and, and for the record, for any listeners who might be a little confused, 99.999% of the time, if a person is under the age of 18, social transition is the main thing that's going to happen. Possibly hormone blockers. It is very calm down. Children are not getting mutilated.

It is so, so, so, so rare for people under the age of 18 to be approved for any surgical intervention. And when that happens, it is after a team including like psychiatrists, psychologists, surgeons, general practitioners, family, and often social work is also involved. Like it is a huge, huge thing for any surgery. Like for 17 year olds even. Like, it is huge. It only happens in, in terms where it would be life threatening to not go ahead with surgical involvement. That's the only time it happens.

Absolutely. And to kind of loop this back into the book, into Camp Damascus. This is the reason why that church tenant exists and this is the reason why curiosity is equated with sin. And it's because if people do their own actual research and read actual literature on what is actually happening, they'll realize that they've been fed a bunch of bullshit. Fun.

So there's a. We learn about Camp Damascus.

Yes.

By a commercial on tv.

So funny.

Which is where we learn that Lisa watches secular tv.

Secular TV and more liberal. More liberal preachers, basically.

Yeah.

I also find it so. I love, I love Rose so much. I love her so much because she's watching this commercial and she's thinking about the fact that a bunch of kids that she knows from school are actually in this commercial, but they've never actually been to Camp Damascus. They're just acting in the commercial. And I'm just like, honey, she doesn't.

Know anyone who's gone to Camp Damascus.

No.

Yes. This is, I think, where we potentially. I mean, at least I suspected either that she was already in it or that she had gone or that Camp Damascus didn't exist. I partly suspected that it didn't exist.

Oh, fun.

That's interesting.

That would have been an interesting thing because it could have been like an internalized factor rather than an external one, which could be an interesting exploration. But yeah, this is the point where I was torn between. She's currently at camp and these aren't actually her parents. This is all just like a social engineering thing that is happening. Or she's already been to camp and forgotten that she has.

Yeah. I was torn between either she's in some kind of coma simulation world where she's in Camp Damascus or. Or she's being. Truman showed in, like this whole neighborhood, like this whole city is Camp Damascus.

Part of me was hoping for a Groundhog Day. I'm not gonna lie.

I was like, oh, I.

Are we gonna have her forget again? And then loop again? And I was kind of getting excited.

I really thought it was like the coma thing because the, the leader, like the prophet of their church went into like a three day coma or something.

Yeah.

And I was like, ah, they're gonna, he's gonna do that and it's gonna be. But it wasn't. I. I still like what it was. I thought it was interesting to not tie that in. I'll say it was a fun red.

I feel like Chuck Tingle, like, fully developed this faith system. This, this.

It was just like I got a.

Religion and like just. Just sprinkled a little bit here and there. I feel like he could have written so much more about it. I was very intrigued.

After that day, that night. Well, she's like gaslighting. She sees Paquit again and she goes to therapy.

Yeah. She sees her go into a closet, which is ironic.

And at therapy, the thing to note is that she didn't tell Dr. Smith about the red polo. And he brings it up of his own accord. He's like, why would you be seeing a woman in a red polo? And she's like, wait a minute. I never mention the red polo. Except she doesn't say that she thinks it because.

Yeah.

And does. And. And she never mentioned that. Like, wasn't it. It was the pol. No, no, you're right. That was confusing for me because I thought it was. That she was a woman, but no, no. That it was a pole.

That too. That too. Though later on, he brings up. He calls Paki she. And, okay, the traditional depictions that she has seen in the book. That's the second one. But, yeah, he. He basically, like, admits that he knows specifically what she's seeing because he refers to Pakita as she, even though typically, I guess, in literature, Paquita is shown.

As male, which is interesting. I found that. With how well researched all of this is, I found that an interesting, like, point. Because, actually, traditionally, demons are kind of sexless. They embody both sexes, you know, incubi, succubi. That's kind of the. It's the same demon impregnating and then getting human sperm. Yeah. Doing this place.

Have you seen Splice Cosmos?

No.

Splice is a movie about two scientists who create a being because they want to be God, basically. And it ends up doing that where it takes semen and then becomes male and delivers it.

Demons are so up Christian demonology is bonkers.

Yeah. And honestly, a lot of them just look like goofy little guys when you.

Look at the artist.

Like, it's so funny. But, yeah, so she goes to therapy and nobody is interested in the fact that she threw up flies. Like, no, the amount of gaslighting, that.

Was wild to me. I'm like, why wouldn't you be concerned that she's throwing up her body weight and flies?

They're just like, oh, you must have, like, swallowed some eggs. And it's like, what the. Take her to the hospital.

What do you mean?

Yeah, the therapist starts, like, he doesn't get very explicit with it in this first visit, but he starts being like, well, demons are usually symbols of your own sins. So, like, have you been having sinful thoughts? And she's like, no.

I love her so much.

She's so good.

And she doesn't lie. Like, she has no concept of the fact that she's even having gay thoughts, which is so real. She's like, no, I just, like, really like my friend and don't like Isaiah. Like, it's normal girl talk, girl power.

It's normal to have friends.

We're besties. And her hair's so gorgeous, and she's got these dimples and these freckles that I'm so jealous of.

She was wearing this super cute bikini that I could never wear myself. But, like, she looks really good in it.

It's so cute.

Boise.

And that sets us up perfectly for what happens next.

The root bear kegger.

Yeah, the root bear kegger. So wholesome. Honestly, though, it is kind of wholesome. And I feel like, as a teen, I would have. If I didn't despise parties, I might have gone to something like that.

Yeah. And I don't.

I think it's fun.

I don't know if either of you grew up with Latter Day Saints, like, people in. In your area or your age group, but there were a few of them that I went to high school with, and they genuinely did parties like this.

Oh, that's so sweet.

Root beer, board games, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's genuinely very sweet and very fun. And honestly, most Latter Day Saints are, like, the nicest people you will ever meet. There's sometimes an underlying reason for that, unfortunately, which is to convert people. But there was something very wholesome about going over to a party where it was literally settlers of catan and soda.

I know that. I went. One of my best friends in middle school was a Latter Day Saint, and I went over to her house once, and I didn't really understand a lot about the religion. I just knew that, like, she wasn't allowed to celebrate birthdays or most major holidays. She couldn't participate, like, in orchestra. We had Christmas music, and she wasn't allowed to play those songs. And I went over to her house once, and she was like, just don't. Don't talk to my mom about religion. I was like, okay, sure, that's fine. I will not. I think her mom asked me, like, if I believed in God. And I was like, yep. But she had, like, you know, they. She opened her fridge to, like, get us something to drink. And I just remember very vividly how much of the soda Big Red was in that fucking fridge. Not only in the fridge, but, like, to the side, like, five boxes.

Oh, my God.

And for those who do not know, Latter Day Saints tend to be prolific soda drinkers. Yes. Because it is specifically against. It's not in their, like, Book of Mormon or anything, but it's like a different writing. It is basically against the tenets of their faith to consume brewed beverages such as coffee or tea. So instead. And a lot of people think it's the caffeine. It's not. It's literally that it's a brewed beverage. So they consume. So water talk and they consume. I don't know.

If you've heard of.

Is it sips or something. The dirty soda place that does cream, like, cream and stuff in your sodas. They are the biggest consumers of soda. And. Yeah, that. That water talk where they, like, mix all the different flavors and stuff in 100% heavy pop if you're over here. Yeah. Or pop.

Disgusting. I hate.

Excuse me. I love.

We're calling it Pop.

I. Soda for life.

So at the party, the root beer kegger, they play truth or dare. Well, first she's roaming the party, and.

She'S prepared note cards.

Oh, yes. This is where we see the note cards for conversation, which is also extremely relatable.

It's the autism.

Yes. I didn't do this specifically, but I definitely would have if I'd ever gone to parties. Yes. So she has her note cards. She sees Martina. She wasn't gonna do truth or dare, but she's like, martina's doing it. So I want to.

I just want to hang out with my cool friend who's very cool, and I don't, like, hope that I get sent to the kissing closet with her. That'd be silly.

That would be so silly. What a lark. And Martina gets sent to the kissing closet with some other dude. I don't know who it was.

Yeah, we don't know. He was just some secular kid.

Yeah.

Some dude. And Martina. Or. Sorry. And Rose gets extremely jealous.

Yeah.

And thinks about how great it would be if she were kissing Martina.

Mm. And. And then the TV that's been playing secular movies starts showing. She. It's so horrific the way it happens, because she gets asked a question next in Truth or Dare, and. But she's staring at the TV and it goes from whatever movie they were watching to, like, imagery of people getting flayed and stuff. Like, it's. It's horrific.

Or it's like, this happens. Sorry. This happens first where she's seeing this, and then Martina gets sent to the closet.

Oh, is that what happened? Okay, so.

Because she's thinking about how great it would be to kiss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's thinking about kissing Martina. The TV changes. It does get colder. I believe it does get cold.

Yeah. She's like. She gets asked, like, if she's a virgin or if she's done it before, like, how many. How much sex she's had. And she starts thinking about, like. Is thinking she's a virgin, but starts having these images of, like, intimacy with this mysterious girl.

This mysterious, beautiful girl. I just. It ends up, I guess, that the kids did switch over to, like, A horror movie or something. I wasn't sure if this was. They actually did switch over to a horror movie or if Isaiah knew about her going to Camp Damascus and was like, playing it off. Like, I wasn't entirely sure what that situation was.

I think everyone just thought it got switched to a horror movie. Like, I think it's just a situation where somebody's like, well, somebody must have switched it. Okay, so in the closet, Martina gets murdered by Paquid. She gets her head turned on her body. It's very exorcist coded, very nasty.

It's horrific. Obviously, Rose is deeply traumatized by this situation. And once again, everyone in her life is kind of like, oh, well, I mean, your friend died. Like, but it was obviously a suicide. And I'm like, or a murder.

Right. They think that.

Or the boy murdered her or something. And it's like, right. What are you talking about?

And like, what are you pinning it on this boy? They're like, oh, you know, he wasn't part of the faith and he's got like a violent past or some. And it's like when they.

They're. The Kingdom of the Pine has hired a lawyer for the family to go after the boy.

Yep.

And Rose is like, but Martina wasn't even part, like, of the church. What do you mean? And they're like, oh, what? The church can't help, like, people? Like, it's so much gaslighting. It's so bad. But it's to cover up the fact that, I don't know, maybe they're attaching demons to teenage kids and sometimes there's some collateral damage that happens.

Yeah. They fully know what's going on. So that obviously sends Rose spiraling. She is holed up for several weeks and she can't eat, can't sleep. Like, she's devastated, which, honestly.

Yeah.

Yeah. And she finally, after a few weeks, goes on a walk with her mom. And they do their regular ritual on this walk.

They're fun little game, which is to.

Point at houses and to say what sin the people in that house might be committing. And Rose is supposed to prescribe a faith based prescription for whatever that sin is. It's super fun and not messed up at all.

No, it's just a fun little bonding activity. And this is once again, I don't know how involved either of you have been in more evangelical Protestant style churches that lean into this sort of stuff, but this conversation was completely believable to me and I was very upset by it. Well, especially because the. The mom is being Very mean with it, too. Like, she is purposely kind of. Like, she ends up kind of picking at Martina's death via one of these questions and by talking about basically saying that she was gay. Like, I think. I don't remember the exact context, but, like, she asked her this question when it's. I think the mom is starting to.

Catch on that she says something about, like, a father. Mom gestures to another house as we pass the porch, light on, and a lazy orange cat sitting confidently on the front stoop. Inside, the television chatters, a prayer service drifting out through the corner. Cool evening air. Suicide, my mother suggests the father took his own life. I'm always trying to impress her with my responses, answering these hypothetical queries of spiritual warfare with a quick and firm solution. This time, however, I fault her. I know exactly what she wants me to say, but as I open my mouth, the words refuse to emerge. Something doesn't quite fit for the family. I finally manage to question for the sinner. My mother clarifies Martina didn't take her own life, but the weight of her death is undeniably tethered to this topic all the same.

Yeah, and I was so upset because, like, there's. Like I mentioned earlier, the mom does seem to be less. Less than the dad involved in the church and kind of agreeing with the way that it acts. But then there's moments like this where it's like, oh, girl, your daughter just lost a friend. Like, why? This is messed up.

Yeah, I know that. Like, I had a fun kind of sore. I had a suicide attempt when I was how old? I was 14, and it was my first attempt that landed me in the hospital. And I distinctly remember, like, after a very traumatic night, a nurse coming up to me when my parents were not in the room and nobody else was in the room and saying, well, I sure hope you're glad you aren't dead, because if you died from suicide, you would go straight to hell. And that fucked me up so bad. I don't recommend having mental health issues in Texas because I heard that shit a lot.

You know what? You know what? Kids with enough mental health issues to actually attempt to kill themselves really need to hear that.

It's a sin.

That's a sin. And they're going straight to hell. Crazy Jesus.

Yeah, so it reminded me very distinctly of, like, that messaging.

I. I feel like gayness aside, clear crush on Martina aside, pushing your child to, like, move on so quickly from the death of a close friend is wild to me. Beyond the fact that they're worried about her gay thoughts resurfacing or whatever. Like, it's. It's wild to me to be this uncaring about your child's emotional, well, being.

Even a stranger, like, or someone you barely know witnessing somebody's death. Yeah, traumatizing is all hell, awful. And like, she obviously feels guilt too, because her demon.

And she doesn't. She doesn't know quite why yet. But yeah, for sure. Like, she is blaming herself. And I will say they, they do. They do send her therapy with her therapist who doesn't even have a psychology. Like, doesn't have like any accreditation on his little certificates on his wall. They're all like religious, religious certifications for.

Therapy, which is real, very real for faith based counselors.

Absolutely.

I was just thinking about it and it's. It's such a symptom of seeing her not as a person, but as their daughter, not as her own person, not as Rose, but as this is my daughter. So it's best for her and it's best for us if she gets over this. Yeah, it's best for her if she goes to this therapist. It's best for her if she goes to the camp. It's like, it's along that path. She's not an individual. She is a member of the community. She is our child. Not a person in her own right.

And it's even reflected in her counting that she does. Like, Rose is obviously very clearly neurodivergent. She has autism, she's autistic. She counts. When she's anxious, she taps her fingers, which I deeply relate to because I tap when I am anxious, I tap differently. She does it wrong. But that's okay. It's. It's fine, Rose. Anyway, her mom snaps at her when she starts doing this on the way to the therapist. And this is part of where I started thinking, like, not only are they. Once again, I wasn't sure if she was currently at the camp or if she was post camp or whatever, but I was like, this is. I feel like they not only sent her for her gay behaviors, but also possibly for her neurodivergent behaviors to try to kind of stimmy that. Because once again, like you're saying, Beth, like, they want her to be a reflection of them instead of letting her be her own person. And her being visibly neurodivergent and visibly gay is quote, unquote, like a strike against them. Not about her at all.

Yeah, they're nurturing the aspects of her personality that they want to foster. So it's like, yeah, she's like a pet rather than a person.

And there's unfortunately a lot of parents like this out there. And it's not always religious either. There's just parents out there that can't see their children as anything more than an extension of themselves. And it's awful.

Yeah.

At the therapy appointment, the. The next one. Oh God. She's also encouraged to get over it and she's given some pills which she immediately knows are placebos.

Yeah.

I questioned a bit that she would know the name of those automatically, but that's fine, I think without doing any other research.

I thought when I read that was that she had taken them before and had just forgotten.

Okay.

But yeah, it is like kind of a head tilt moment.

Yeah.

There for sure.

I clocked it. I chalked it up either to her like fixation on like fun science facts and stuff or like you said, Caius to it possibly being that she has been prescribed this before and found out what they were the previous time.

Sure, yeah. But regardless, she knows that they are sugar pills and does not take them. And she also memorizes the code to Dr. Smith's safe for later use.

Yeah.

And this is where he mentions like a very obscure text, the Mage, which I actually looked up. I put the ebook down. I looked this up and it's in this text that I found out that taqir in Hebrew means fear. So I thought that was like a little, a fun little inclusion, but a symbolism there.

Yeah. And this is the part that I. This, this, this, this therapist was already putting my teeth on edge in his first visit. But this is where she talks about, like you said, that that work. And then he says that it's part of his job to read all sorts of spiritual texts, but that she's just like a little girl who's letting her curiosity get the best of her or something like that, which I. She is 20, sir. She is a 20 year old woman. What are you talking about?

Just disgusting.

And this is. Yeah, this is also where he keeps pushing and pushing, that this is her guilt manifesting. And he finally snaps because she's like. Guilt over what? Like what are you talking about? And he finally says, over sin. Dr. Smith bellows finally losing his cool as his face turns red and he lunges forward in his chair, unleashing the words like a holy tidal wave over temptation. I read these books because it's my duty to God, Rose. Do you understand? These texts are not meant for the impressionable minds of curious little girls who think they understand the world. But know absolutely nothing. And I wanted to throw the whole man out of the window.

Well, this is our first like mask off moment for one of the men in Rose's life and we get Luke's later on. But this is definitely the first one, which I guess makes sense as to why she would memorize the code because I can see not trusting, first of all being given sugar pills and then second of all having this outburst.

Exactly. And this is where he has the slip where he refers to Pachit as she, even though in the text that she's referencing, Pakit is referred to as.

Male apparently, or just not referred to in by any gender.

But yeah, I feel like Dr. Smith is the type of guy that would just assume then that it's.

Yes, I, I would say that like a lot of, especially like evangelical Christians, denominations born out of Protestantism don't, I mean, quite frankly don't read the Bible. But also, it's a little catty of me, but it's true. And don't tend to like, look into the historical basis for like, like Christian demonology. Like, they just don't read up on it, you know, so their, their assumption is, oh, it's powerful, it's male.

Yeah. And, and I will say, like, I, when I was involved in Protestantism, I was, I was pretty lucky because the, the pastor that I had was actually very like educated on the original translation of the Bible and was very open about wanting people to learn more from the Bible itself. And there was a few things that, that they, they would bring up that a lot of people didn't like. Such as the fact that the whole revelations probably refers to an event that already happened. It refers to like a specific series of events like that if you look historically at that time when it was written, that had occurred and impacted the church. But like, most people get upset when you say that because they haven't actually read the book themselves. Fun little tidbit from a different time in my life.

Yeah, it's the same thing of like people who get really mad when you say that, you know, Christ was okay with gay people and actually valued women and like sex, like, had no problem with sex workers and actually had a huge problem with the rich and tax collectors.

Yeah.

And people generally.

Mental gymnastics.

Yeah. People who took advantage of others. Obviously the tax collector thing is kind of a, a bit of an anti Semitism, but Yeah.

But then you look at stuff like it's easier for a rich man or a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to Enter the gates of heaven. Like, it's, it's pretty clear that very.

Present in the text.

Mm.

But I, I found it really interesting that Dr. Smith, when he is like going on this diatribe, he. He tells her that she needs to start looking at the actual facts and accept like the reality or whatever and knowing later that he is like specifically involved in the tethering ceremony and everything. It's just, it's so frustrating how they try to pin all of this on Rose. Like, this is your sin manifesting. Pachid's not real. Well, knowing the whole time that it is very real, it's just, it's incredibly frustrating and I'm glad that events progress the way they do later on.

Well, I think it's trying to reinforce that mental block that they've. The worm block that they've given her.

Yeah.

Trying to reinforce that. Telling her to forget it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Growing up, I, Whenever I would ask questions, I was told it's how different denominations interpret the Bible is what dictates how they think about it. So, like, what the rules are. So it's interesting to think about those very explicit things and being like, well, it's just a different interpretation. Yeah, Jesus didn't like rich people, but it's like, well, we can interpret it a different way.

Denominations.

Well.

And like when you look at the, the very intentional translation of the one part of the Bible that does refer to lying with other men.

Sodom and Gomorrah.

That's not the original. That's not the original, like, interpretation of it. Sodom and Gomorrah too. Sodom and Gomorrah was not about any like sexual sins or anything. It was about hospitality being betrayed. Like, it was a moral lesson about hospitality. And. But because of the way that intentionally the Bible has since been translated, it becomes a prop for a lot of people to have hate, basically.

Right. And even if something is present in like the religious text or any religious text that is, you know, we now in our modern day society, like, well, this is fucked up. I. There's.

There should be room for adaptation.

Yeah, there should be room for adaptation, but also like room for. You can have your faith and you can believe what you want. You know, I think no part of me is ever like, I think homophobia sucks, but if somebody is like, believes in their heart of hearts due to their religion, that like, it is wrong. Fine. However, that should have absolutely no impact on my life because that's not my religion, that's not my belief. And me being gay has no impact on somebody else disagreeing with it. It just doesn't matter. So, like, for me, I talked to my family, and I was like, hey, I really don't give a shit if you don't like it. Actually, I really don't. I'm not gonna fight with you on it. All I'm asking for is just respect. Just treat me as, like, your family member, and we're fine. That's it.

Yeah. 100%. It's. It's ridiculous how many people think that they can put their tenants on other people. It's. It's great and wonderful. If you have found a faith that works for you and you want to. Lately, let's just pretend. Let's just say that your faith says, no meat. You can't eat meat. No meat. Veganism is our religion. We're a religion that does veganism. That's great for you and for your family and for the other members of your church. And I 100% support that. But you can't then go to other people who aren't part of your religion and be like, and you need to stop eating meat too, because my religion says so. And it's like, you can't. Like, that's their body. They can do that if they want. Like, they're not part of your organization.

And if your child, you know, as they grow older, realize, actually, I would like to have some salmon, or I would like to have a burger. Cool. That's also their body. You can express concern, but ultimately, it is up to your child. It is up to each individual to make choices for themselves. And that. That includes, like, children, because children do deserve autonomy. Like, up to, like, unless they're. Literally. Their lives are at risk, they deserve autonomy.

Yeah, well, and it's like, people act like you're gonna immediately go to an extreme. There's a difference between being like, hey, little Timmy, would you rather be involved in theater at school or do you want to do a sport? And little Timmy says, I'd like to do theater, and you say, cool, I'll sign you up. Versus, like, letting him just run wild and do whatever he wants. There's a big difference between offering your child autonomy in their life and letting them just be a little chaos gremlin.

If you say, theater or sport, and they say, I would like to set fire to the school, I think that, yeah, different.

Maybe don't go with them. I also want to note my example. I used veganism because it was the first thing that came to mind. I will say 100%. I have encountered more people who will shame you for not eating meat than people who will shame you for. For. For eating meat. It's crazy to me. I like to tell the story of. Because I was raised Catholic and I lived in a predominantly Catholic area. So obviously Lent is a big thing in the. In the Catholic community. And the number of people who have taken the lesson from Lent that fish is not meat is honestly crazy. My co worker was telling me one time how her husband. If she makes fish, if she makes salmon and, like, a vegetable and, like, whatever, for dinner, she has to also make real meat because he doesn't believe that A, a meal can be had without any meat, and B, that salmon is meat.

Hey, what the fuck?

Crazy.

After the therapy session where she gets yelled at, Rose goes, a, driving. And she drives randomly to this park, and she sees this beautiful woman who.

Looks like the woman in her dream.

Oh, my God. Crazy. Crazy. What are the chances this dream woman is real? And she approaches, and the person reacts, distressed.

Yeah.

And says, you know, we can't see each other.

I don't know you. You don't know me.

You can't do this. Yeah. And Rose is confused and heartbroken and doesn't know what to do. So she goes for another drive, an angry drive this time. This part I was a bit confused about. She sees another demon and is standing there.

Yeah. So she goes.

And she runs into him.

Yeah. She goes back to her car, and then the girl does, like, come over and talk to her again. And I don't remember exactly what she says when she comes back over. It's basically more of like, we can't see each other or whatever. And I think that's when Ramiel. I'm gonna go Ramael. That's when he starts getting summoned because she starts feeling cold. And then I think her dad calls right as she's about to leave. So she kind of drives away.

Yeah.

She calls her dad her. Like, the. The call. Like, they're static because. Because, oh, technology. And then the girl comes to the car and apologizes and says, like, you can't help me, Rose. That's the point. And Rose is like, oh, I didn't tell her my name.

This hot chick knows my name, knows.

My name, and won't tell me her name. Oh, my God. And then the girl coughs up a fly, tells Rose that, like, I'm so sorry. I love you. And Rose is so confused, and then starts driving and.

And then Ramiel just appears. She crashes straight into him.

Yeah. She plays chicken with a demon.

Yeah, because she. She clocks him immediately as being, like, this McKee that she's been seeing because he's wearing the same red polo and khakis and the little. The neat little name tag and the chain around his neck.

Also works at Target.

He also works at Target and has scraggly hair. I. So I. You had brought up a little confusion about why Ramiel is, like, manifesting there and not.

Oh, no, no, no, no. It's more like just the series of events that led to the car.

Okay. Because I was gonna say it felt like with Paki earlier, she went after Martina because that was the source of what was triggering Rose's gay. And so with this, I felt like Willow's gay was getting triggered. So that's why Ramiel. That makes sense.

That clicks it for me, because I was like, why was he, like, running to her?

That's. So he's. He was. He was just down the block at the. The Five and Dime and had to, like, jog over to the park where Willow was.

He's, like, huffing and puffing.

He just. It unfortunate. Just unfortunately.

Yeah. Retroactively. When they mentioned later that, like, oh, I killed Willow's demon, I was like, oh, that was what? Yeah, that series, like, it clicked.

Okay.

I was thinking for a minute, I was like, are they on shifts?

Oh, my God. That'd be so funny, too, because of their little outfits if they were also, like, shift workers where they rotate.

That was also partly. When it initially happened. I was like, why is there a different one?

But then.

Yeah, later on anyway. Yeah. But it was more auditory. Processing was challenging. That makes sense.

That makes sense. So when she hits him, too, she. Because she notices that he kind of teleports into her car. Like, the series of events is really weird. Like, he gets hit, but then kind of like teleports phases and is attacking her so he can phase through stuff. But then she notices that when the fire starts, he can't phase through the fire. And that's how she realizes that fire is their weakness.

Because the car is part electric. Not part electric, but, like, there are electric parts which are fucky.

Yeah.

When the demons are so funny.

And then I also murders him. Oh, she go. She's honestly, good for you, Rose. She's. She's cool as a cucumber. In. In times of crisis, I did find it really interesting. This is once again just where I was thinking about how Chuck Dingle has blended different religions into this so that he's not speaking specifically about one. But on page 86. And she says, drawing on centuries of demonic lore, I reach out and snatch the little metal crucifix hanging from my rear view mirror. Gripping the beaded rope tight in my hands, I push open the driver's side door. And I clocked that because having come from being raised Catholic and knowing, like always seeing the crucifix and everything and moving into a Protestant sect denomination, one of the first things that I learned and realized is that very rarely do Protestants use the crucifix. They prefer to use a plain cross over a crucifix most of the time. And so when I read that, I was like, oh, I thought they were. Because, like, I. I was still like, trying to figure out, I guess, what. What denomination they were supposed to be. And I think it's just supposed to be that they're. They're all the denominations kind of mushed together.

It's just like, what bits are fun?

That's so funny. I didn't even clock that because I'm used to the crucifix.

Yeah.

In like, Catholicism. That's like.

It's really interesting.

I feel like the cross is like, in movies used to just. The cross. Yeah.

The one thing it seems not to be is Pentecostal because they do not. Not absolutely none of that. No crosses, no crucifixes.

It's hard to talk about this book without also, like, talking about religion.

Yeah.

But yeah, she. She then does the prayer to St. Michael, and after that she beats him with a. I'm trying to find. It's like a piece of metal that she yanks off the car and just beams the sky with, which I found so funny. But I love, I love, I love her braveness in that and I love that she immediately clocks the fire thing. Like, Rose is so smart and so cool and I love her.

She's like on the verge of being a Mary Sue. I will say for me.

Interesting.

Just like on the edge.

I see my thing is too also. Well, this is. I don't. This is adjacent. I feel like I'm not a fan of the term Mary sue and I'm not a fan of. Because it's only ever applies to female characters. And I feel like people use it as a reason to dislike power fantasies for women versus power fantasies for men. Like Luke Skywalker has never been called a Mary sue in his fucking life, even though he is as much of a Mary sue as Rey is in the sequel trilogy.

Oh, I didn't think of Rey as Mary sue, though.

A lot of people did.

Yeah.

Okay. That's totally valid. I will consider my usage of the term. I think of it in fan fiction, to be honest.

Well, and that's where it originates from. It's.

And then the.

The story.

And because fan fiction is such, like, a female dominated kind of, like, sect of fandom. Because. Because women are horny. Oh, yeah.

But. And to be clear about that, I wasn't, like, criticizing your use of it. I was just. My brain got triggered by the word Mary Sin.

No, that's completely valid.

I think it's a fair criticism of Rose's character. I don'. I don't agree with it necessarily, but I understand how that would, like, how that comes because she is so able to act in these very stressful situations. I feel like it's explained pretty well, and there's enough moments of her fucking up severely that it kind of balances it. But I super get how, especially at this point in the novel where she hasn't really fucked up yet. It definitely can feel that way.

Yeah. And I. I kind of read it as her compartmentalizing. So, like, in the moment, she reacts very coolly to the situation and then has to process it later.

I think. I think it's more the idea that she, like, knows. She happens to know everything. It's sort of like a deus ex knowledge.

That's. That's super fair. I kind of read it as. It's because she does know this stuff already.

Sure.

Like, people criticize how quickly she deconstructs compared to, like, a lot of real people. And while I, I still say that there's more time, there's just a lot of time skips in the book. She's already done it once before. Just because she doesn't have, like, the surface memories of it. Like, I feel like a lot of the things where she, like, just immediately has an innate knowledge of it, it could be explained by the fact that she has gone through this process before. Basically.

Yeah.

And I think people are like, wow, she deconstructs so quickly because they. They're thinking that the deconstruction process happened after Camp, like, before Camp Damascus, and that, you know, that time period was probably not that long. But I super disagree. I don't think meeting Willow was the point where her life changed. I think she had to deal with deconstruction at least part of that process before she. She met, like, was brave enough to literally leave this, the town that she lives in, and then find this girl and then to be able to fall in love with this girl. I mean, she didn't fully know. I think she talks about it later where she's like, maybe I'm reading this wrong. So obviously this was her first relationship of this romantic relationship. But it takes so much work to even get to that point. It's so obvious, 100%.

And that's what I was thinking about, too, because one of the things that confused me early on and kind of tied me to the. Oh, this is all like a setup. This is like she's in a coma, like you said, and she's dreaming. This or this is Camp Damascus, is because she refers to her parents by their first names pretty frequently, which is unusual to me and the culture that I grew up in. However, I do know a lot of people who do refer to their parents by their first name, and it's usually because they are trying to take back some of the power in their relationship with their parent because their parent has not been good. So I kind of read this as. Even though she doesn't remember going to Camp Damascus and all this stuff, I interpret it as she had started deconstructing. She had started dating Willow, and she had probably started distancing herself from her parents and possibly referring to them by their first names in order to create kind of that mental, I don't need to obey these people. They're not in an authority position over me. And that was leaking through, even though she had already gone through the process.

Yeah, for sure.

And it took me a bit to get there, but it actually took talking to. To you, Marie, to fully get my brain to click, because I thought at first I was like, well, these aren't her parents. And then I thought, well, this must be like a. A white ism. And. And full transparency. I'm white. But when I say white ism, I do mean, like, American. I'm first gen. Yeah. So I. My family is Eastern European. I was raised by a variety, like immigrants from a variety of areas. So that's just not part of any part of my upbringing. However, I call my dad Adrian because he can go fuck himself. And I don't see him as a parent anymore. I think he's lost that right. And there was a period in time where my mom. I never called her by her first name, but I used to refer to her as Mommy. And I had to switch at a point when. When our relationship was, like, in a lot of turmoil because of my identity, where I switched it to Mom. And now, you know, we're in a much better place. And I kind of oscillate between the Two. Because they're both what I. What I. What I refer to her as. And we're fine. But it clicked when I. When. When you were bringing that up and when I was reading this and being very confused that, like, yeah, this is. This is like, a bona fide thing that. That people do, because sometimes you have to instill that, like, separation, and that's a. It's a good way to do it.

Absolutely. And it's really interesting, too, because I. I do feel like. And I'm not 100% familiar with it. I don't know anybody who grew up, like, with their parents telling them to refer to them by their first name or anything, but from what I understand, more commonly, it's coming from parents who want to have a more, like, equitable relationship with their child. And I don't think Rose's parents would be. Would be those types of parents.

She does refer to Lisa Darling, like, her mother, as mom far more frequently than she refers to Luke Darling as Dad. I noticed he. She does call him dad, and she does, like, say my father and stuff, but she says Luke far more frequently.

Absolutely.

So because she has just been in a car accident, the demon seems to be burning to death, which is of note, and she has killed a demon, and she is badly injured. So she. An ambulance is coming, and she is taken to the hospital. But while she is passed out, she has visions of the tethering ceremony. And this is where I said, what the fuck? Because I didn't know what was going on.

I was like, that's so valid. When it transitioned, I thought I. Until she woke up again in the hospital. And even for a little bit after that, I thought this was. She's starting to. She's starting to, like, break loose. We got to do it again. And that. This was a current event. Yes, that was happening.

I thought it was a current event. I was like, wait, what is happening?

Yeah.

Are we. Did we go to camp? Is this camp now?

Camp truly is the friends we made along the way. And by friends, I mean the demons.

That we've been tethered to.

Yeah.

I was like, is she waking up from her coma? But also, how does that make sense? Because she's been, like, hurt, and why would that wake her? And so, like, it took me a bit to get. I think it really is the Truman show effect, personally, because I was, like, fully bought into, like, this is the truant, but.

Caius.

Yeah.

Have you seen the Matrix?

I have, yes.

Oh, my gosh. So I don't know if you're aware that in the Matrix series, one of the ways of waking people up is to have them die in the simulation because it can jolt them into waking up sometimes. But obviously risky business because they are attached to a thing that could also just kill their real body as well. So that just what you just said right now made me think of that. And I was like, oh, my God, what if Rose was.

No, you're right.

Extra, extra.

You should watch is the Matrix for the listeners.

Allie. A little bonus for those that have made it this far.

The first time I watched it, I had to stop because I was very upset by the by the mouth scene. That first one where his mouth gets shut.

I hate that.

I hate that so much. I hate that fucking horror trope. I. It's.

I have no mouth.

Gross. Awful. So she wakes up in the hospital and she spends some time there. And she is given no books except for the magazines that the nurses feel bad and bring her.

And her Bible.

Except for the Bible.

Oh, and the new copy of Professor. Professor of Pastor Ben's like, latest entrepreneurial biblical teachings going back to the tethering ceremony. Just for a second. Like, as she's processing it, she realizes that Dr. What's. Yeah, Dr. Smith was the main, like, participant in it when it was happening.

So she's extra glad that she memorized that code.

Yeah.

11, 15. Something.

11, 14, 15. Oh, because I'm looking at the page.

I'm not this smart.

I just. I like numbers.

Hell yeah.

Helium in the hospital. She. I think it's so cute. I said she. Whenever she goes to get a snack from the snack machine, she calls. Like, she tells her iv we're going out to lunch or whatever. Would you like to go out to lunch?

So real. I spent. I spent a good bit of time in my youth hooked up to an iv and I would. I would talk to that puppy all the time. It's just like, my little dude.

There's a little guy giving you all the.

Yeah, just like pumping food straight to my stomach.

So in the hospital, she is visited by several church members and she is made to tell the same story over and over again. She lies to her parents about what the car crash was because she knows it's probably better that they don't know about another demon. And I think they know that she's lying, but are relieved that she's lying.

Yeah.

So she is made to tell that same story over and over again to the rest of the community so that they know she's cool. She's not gonna Be weird about it.

I mean, part of it is, is that like, her lying is the goal. Like they, they do.

Yeah.

They fundamentally understand that they can't un. Gay these people. What they're trying to do is make these people so scared and so reliant on like, their faith and community that they learn to, to lie like they breathe.

Yeah.

So her lying is like, great, great for them.

Yeah. Lying about is as good as living it, basically.

Exactly. And it's, it's, it's very reflective of these more, these more radical, these more kind of cuckoo bananas Christian sex where they literally say like, oh, you, you can be gay, you just can't be a practicing homosexual. And it's like, fam. Calm down. Like, that's wild to me.

It breaks my heart because I've seen some interviews of like quote, unquote, ex gay individuals.

Yeah, that term.

And especially now if you talk, if you, you know, go watch more, more recent ones because they're still coming out, you will find a lot of them being like, well, yeah, but I'm, I'm still a homosexual, but I'm not practicing and you know, I'm living in a godly way or what have you. And oh boy, that's heartbreaking. I mean, because that was so much of my like, youth was being like, okay, well this is who I am. But I, but this is wrong. This is, this is, you know, it's, it is a sin, it is a moral ill, and therefore I have the choice to not. That's what people are talking about, by the way, when people say, oh, it's a choice, the choice is you can decide to lie. And that's why we see so many people frankly commit suicide. Like these, these ex gay populations. It happens very frequently because, yeah, it sucks.

It really does. And I consider myself extremely fortunate. I never really had to deal with any of that. My family has always been very open and accepting. My grandparents took me to pride when I was like seven or eight to go for my sister who is a lesbian or something on that spectrum. I'm not exactly sure how she identifies, to be fair. And it's really funny because like my grandma, when I first started dating a boy for the first time, she was really surprised because she's like, oh, I just assumed that you were gay. And I was just like, oh, I just haven't really felt like dating. And it wasn't until later that I realized, oh, that's because I associate dating with like, sex and stuff and I'm asexual, so I don't really think about people in that context. So I just confuse what romantic. Like, romantic desire is, because it's not the same for me as it is for other people. So grandma was half right, but not completely. But I did have friends, unfortunately, growing up, who were sent to conversion therapy and who were sent to these camps because their parents found out that they were gay. And guess what? They're still gay. They're just more traumatized than they were before.

Like, for me, I was always a little off. I think I scared the fuck out of my parents because on my Facebook, I had a. I had a folder dedicated to pictures of Cara Delavigne because she's a really pretty girl. So when I started dating boys, they were still disconcerted because, like, I'm. I'm transgender. So, like, but we didn't know at the time. Nobody knew, actually. To my. My mom has said, like, I'm the first gay person that she, like, really knew and the first transgender person that she really knew. And that goes for both of them. Both of my. My parents, really. So that was, like, a scary learning experience. But, like, when I started dating boys, there was this, like, relief kind of that came from them, which was weird because I also, in my head, was feeling like I shouldn't be dating boys because it's gay, but I didn't understand why it was gay. So it's just like this weird, convoluted thing where I don't know. It's. It's so hard to explain. Like, subtle. Obviously, there's overt, anti, like, queer messaging in my upbringing, but the subtle bits of it that really embedded itself into my brain, it's.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

And.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's so funny. Like I said, I feel very lucky in how I was raised. And the fact that I was told from a very young age that gay people are normal. Like, that's just normal. That's fine. We love them. And later on, I don't think my grandparents were really aware of what transgender meant, like, beyond maybe, like, a very few things that they've heard over the years. Like, Chaz Bono, I believe, was one of the earlier. One of the earlier celebrities to come out as trans. And. But even then, they were like, well, as. As long as he's happy. Like. But at the same time, despite that, I still had a lot of internalized weirdness about gender and about sexuality. And it's very interesting, growing up Catholic, and I will specify this, I had a very. I had a very weird confirmation teacher, but she was very, very like, conservative beyond anyone that I had really experienced up to that point, like, within Catholicism. So it was really weird coming to an age where, like, I realized that the idea of sex really, like, squeaked me out. Like, to. To, like, a large portion. She would say stuff like, oh, well, that's normal. No, women enjoy sex. Like, it's just something that you have to endure. And so I did not realize that I was, like, on the asexual spectrum until well into adulthood because I just assumed, oh, well, you know, women just hate sex. And I'm definitely a woman.

It's like misogyny plays so interesting. Interestingly into it because my. So, like, my father has become increasingly. I guess I would say extremist. Sure. As the time has gone on. And I think. I do think actually a decent part of it is because he sees me as, like, entirely his daughter. And how dare I try to take the place of a man.

Yeah. So it's like that intersection of.

Yes.

Owning your child and wanting them to be what you expect them to be. And also misogyny and also.

Well, my whole childhood. Because I. Like my whole childhood. What he would say is, you're going to take care of me in my old age. If he had thought that I was his son, I would never have heard that.

Absolutely not. Because it's a woman's place to caretake.

Absolutely.

Yeah. It's that loss of control. And absolutely, when they go through that, the people like. Like your father, they just get worse because they're trying desperately.

We really see that in this book because, like Lisa, as we've mentioned, Lisa is less militant with Rose. Luke is the one that. That instigates the more violent parts of it. And. And it is the male church leaders that in the end, like, you know, we're jumping ahead a little bit, but, like, determined that, like, well, we're just gonna kill them. Yeah, yeah.

And it's.

Yeah.

I think Lisa's enforcement is largely for your own good. Right. It's for your own good if you do this.

And it's because she loves her daughter.

Exactly. The consequences of not doing it are worse than just doing it.

Yeah.

So Paquit comes back to the hospital because in her wanderings, going for lunch with her friend, she. Yeah. She sees a romance movie in an abandoned hospital room. Or at least somebody is asleep there. Anyway, so she starts having thoughts again, and Paquid comes back and breaks her fingers. And she makes the connection at this point between her thoughts and Paquid's appearance.

Yeah. I love her little Revelation at the end of that chapter where she's like, well, I guess I know now for sure I'm gay. She's just like, yep, yep.

She's just like, I'm gay and there's a demon out there who really doesn't want me to acknowledge it.

Yeah, it's so good.

So, yeah, she starts thinking about it and basically because she doesn't have any other books to read, she starts thinking about what this could mean and the fact that Dr. Smith is largely a religious psychologist and the implications of hearing his voice in her dream, memory, vision while she was passed out. Just like a lot of things kind of coming together for her. And, yeah, she vows to figure it all out, I guess.

Yeah. She prepares to, like, break into his office when she's recovering. I love it so much. And I also. I really liked it. I don't know exactly. It's after she realizes she's gay, but before she breaks in on page 110, she says slowly, disconnecting from your community, from your family, is difficult. And while it seems like unearthing their sinister motives and dark secrets might make the process easier, it will never entirely quell the pain. I've been avoiding this dark ache by keeping my mind busy when my body couldn't be. But it hasn't gone away. The sadness is still there, lurking in the corner like a pale demon in a red polo, just waiting to finally be acknowledged. That acknowledgement could arrive after several decades, or it could happen tonight. But the time will come. Eventually, I'll have to fully contend with this simple fact. The love I was promised is conditional. And, oh, that speaks to me so much. It's just heartbreaking that she has to come to this realization that the love that people in her life are giving her is entirely based on the premise that she perform how they want her to.

My dad fully told me that once. It was like, yeah, well, all, all parental love is conditional. And the condition is, you know, for me it was being his, like, idyllic child, like reflection of him.

It's when parents say, I love you, but I don't like you, that. That's such a damaging phrase. And I see it all the time. And it's like they think they're being clever, they think they're being cute, but it's like such an awful thing to say to a child.

Right? Yeah, because that's not love, really.

So she does break into Dr. Smith's office wearing an angel mask. It's so good you two were picturing something completely different. To what I was picturing.

Oh, what were you?

A big, biblically accurate angel?

Oh, just a whole bunch of eyes. Is that. That's so funny. I love that. No, for reference, Caius and I were both picturing something adjacent to the mask that the killer in Valentine 2001 wears.

Which is like a little.

A little cherub mask face thing.

Such a specific. Call out, add it to the list.

I don't know if I recommend Valentine 2000. It's. It's a fun movie, I guess I'll say that.

So she finds. During the break in, she opens the safe, finds a list of names and the status of being tethered or not. And, yeah, she wants to know what it means. And the way that she breaks in is crawling in through a basement window.

Yeah.

It's just funny to me because it's like, how did you think you're gonna get out after crawling in through that window? Was there a plan?

I mean, she. She. She goes out the same way.

She can't, I guess.

So it just. It's just a little harder on the way. I just, like, climb up on his desk.

Oh, my God. The fact that her finger's broken during it is such, like, a moment.

Yep.

And she has, like, a. A permanent, like, kind of limp going on with her leg. Now because she's been in this really bad car accident.

She's, like, severely burned.

She's determined.

Oh, my gosh.

Yep. Yeah. So she goes. She tries to be covert and approaches people on the list to try and figure out what's going on. And nobody knows anything. I think the forgetting is either more effective for them or they are committed to lying one way or the other.

Yeah.

Well, like in the case of the one person she does talk to more, we witness her speaking to Allie. It becomes clear that it is intentional on her.

Absolutely.

She does remember, but she does not want to acknowledge it.

And Rose sees Allie's demon and says, I can help you. I see. And Allie absolutely shuts her down. And she realizes. Rose realizes she's in trouble because Allie is high up in the church.

And Allie. I found it really interesting because Allie meets her at a coffee shop. And so this is, once again, Chuck Tingle bringing in a bunch of different inspirations for the Church of the Pine, where they. They don't really drink coffee. It's not strictly forbidden by their church, but it's, like, considered like a. Like a little sin. Like a little baby sin that you don't want to do. So I did find it interesting that Ali is someone who is like higher up in the church but still drinks coffee. And I wondered if that was more her father being stricter about that kind of stuff than maybe even the church itself necessarily.

I think it's more of a control thing, personally.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. I also, I found it really interesting the like, MLM to Alt Right pipeline being so in evidence here, because the. The excuse that she uses to meet with Ali is that she's interested in, like, their youth program, business person program or whatever. And she quotes. Oh, God. She quotes a teaching from Pastor Bend and it is. It's okay to run a church like a business because if we don't treat the message of Jesus like a Fortune 500 company, then non believers will certainly do that with messages of their own. I continue. Religion is more than just faith. It's faith with a brand. Did you just make that up? The original leader, I reply. Pastor Ben's first book. I hate it.

Yeah, it was funny this morning. I was. I was, you know, getting transport, medical transport, and I see this huge billboard. It felt very prophetic.

Hell, yeah.

That was like, do you suffer from lust? Jesus Christ is there to help. And it felt very like, I don't know, very reminiscent of this thing of.

Like, he's going to help for sure.

But like, just also like this. This blatant, like, gaudy display of wealth.

Yeah. This commercialization.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't think Jesus sees me that way.

I don't think so either. God damn it. Okay, so to get back to the book, though, I did find this in particular, really great horror writing. When Ally's demon starts to appear on page 126, Alli's lips slowly curl up into a pleasant smile. But the fake nature of her expression is promptly revealed as tears begin to well up in her eyes. One of them finally crests rolling down her cheek, but the grin remains unwavering. And I felt so bad for Ally in that moment, even though I knew Ally was probably about to rat Rose out for asking too many questions. Because it's just that stark difference between trying to maintain this fake facade and her true feelings, like revealing themselves as she sees the demon in the corner.

Who knows what Allie's experienced with her demon.

Exactly.

So Ally rats are out.

Yeah. And Rose tries to get ahead of it by calling her dad and being like, people are spreading rumors about me.

Well, I think she calls to get the temperature from her dad to sort of see how normal he is, because it doesn't get brought up. She's just like, what's for dinner or whatever, just to, like, see if he's gonna say anything.

She says. She says people have been starting rumors about me, and he makes a dumb dad joke about rumors about butter or something like that.

Okay.

And this is actually. I did mark this down as well on page 129 after he does his stupid pun. She says, this is normally where I'd sigh loudly and get secondhand embarrassed. But his cheerful nature in this tense moment is enough to warrant a full cackle of unexpected laughter to erupt from my throat. It feels so much better than a single fly spit take. Don't worry, Rose. My father insists. I've got you. I've always got you. Which very shortly becomes horror. But in that moment, I. It honestly broke my heart because if her dad would only actually be like this and be a loving parent. It's so obvious how much she loves him and how much she wants that warmer relationship with him that he just will not give her because she's not how he wants her to be. And I. It's so heartbreaking.

Well, she got reset, right? Like, I'm sure there's trauma from before, but she doesn't remember it. So he's playing off of the idea that she doesn't remember anything else. And it's manipulative, it's gross, it's 100% manipulation. And this is where we get the other mask off moment where I think he thinks she hangs up and he yells at someone in the background. And she realizes that, yeah, the. The game is up. That she's got to go.

Exactly. She's got to go. But she. She still heads home, which I just feel like she didn't know what to.

Do in the moment because she's driving his car. So I think she's still sort of in that mindset of, like, well, I'm. I'm in his car. He's gonna get me anyway. And like, whatever.

Yeah. But then she sees her mom waiting for her outside with a suitcase.

Yeah. Her mom has packed her a bag. Because I think finally, I guess, sort of that for the best mentality is now flipped and she's. Her mom is realizing what might actually be for the best is to not get taken by her dad again. Because I think she realizes how bad it will be.

Exactly. And she asked her, like, was it worth it? And Rose is like, yes, like, it was. And I think that that kind of helped something clip for her mom in that moment. And I also. I highlighted this as well. Her mom is basically saying, like, your dad's waiting like they have. They're gonna haul you back to Camp Damascus. And Rose says on page 131. So don't let them, I demand. Somehow, a smile manages to break out across my mother's face, Lisa briefly chuckling at this suggestion before sadness gradually creeps back in. It's so far past that now. Rose, she says, shaking her head. You have no idea how hard it was to convince the congregation to step back after. After your crash. But you still couldn't stop looking for answers. Well, now they think you found some. And it's really not our decision anymore. And I think it just really speaks to how her mother feels, like, helpless in the situation. She just. She keeps going along with it because she can't think of a way to fight against it. And it's. It's really sad.

She can't conceive of her herself having power in the situation because she keeps saying we, and it's clearly herself and Luke. It's not that, you know, Lisa had power. It's that Lisa and Luke convinced the congregation. It's never her own power. It's just as a couple. So she doesn't have autonomy in her own life.

Yeah. And that. That does come from. And once again, this is. This is Chuck Dingle doing his research. In a lot of these more extremist sects of Christianity, there is this thought that, like, basically, you visualize an umbrella. God is the big umbrella, covering everybody and giving power only to Papa, because the Father is then the umbrella for the rest of the family. And often in the more extreme ones, you'll find where, like, women aren't even allowed to pray for other people, like, other parts of the congregation, because they're not considered to have, like, the same imparting of power that men do. And I feel like this is really speaking to that where she just. She's in this sect of a religion where she has no power whatsoever, so she can't even conceive of going against her husband.

And it makes me so. I mean, first of all, the umbrella. Like, the last church service that I went to, where the pastor brought up the umbrella thing, and I was like, okay, well, I'm done. Like, that's bad.

Yeah.

But to say to, like, the book, I think what breaks my heart is like, lisa, I'll read this. This little section. You should leave, too, is all I can think to say. Lisa hesitates, her eyes burning through me. At first, I think she's chosen silence as a final goodbye. But at the last moment, she opens her Lips to offer a parting phrase. You are so, so spoiled, my mother says in disgust. Which I think really speaks to Lisa's mindset of leaving the church, leaving the family is selfish. And so she. You know, she. I think she understands it's kind of this weird juxtaposition where she both wants her daughter to be happy, but also sees her daughter needing that happiness and needing to be who she is as a form of like. Of vainglory, basically.

Yeah. It's rebellion instead of just being part of who Rose is.

Yeah. So at this point, we get the book of Rose, we get some rewriting, taking the power back, her version of Tenants and Scripture, which I think is nice. Yeah, I think it's.

I think it's nice, too.

She gets to sort of figure out what she believes in on her own, and I think doing that through scripture is effective for her.

Yeah. Considering her background and what she's come out of, it makes a lot of sense as a way for her to take the power back.

And also the. I didn't. I figured. I didn't figure out that she was saying it out loud until later on. And I think it's very funny just to think of her saying it out loud every single time.

Yeah.

I love it so much. It's so funny. I love it. They're like, did you just make up your own Bible verse?

I love it.

I love her so much.

And we get to meet Saul at this point, who is.

I love Saul.

Yeah. He's one of my favorite characters. And I don't like that we didn't get a lot of time with him.

Yeah.

Especially in the latter half of the book. I feel like we didn't get a lot of information on him. A lot of characterization. I mean, we got personality, but I just feel like. I don't know. Give me more.

Yeah. I feel that with. With both Saul and Willow, and, I mean, I think part of that just comes with the territory of. Of this being such a fast book and this being the start of their lives. But it is still a bit gut wrenching how Saul is sort of sidelined and to an extent, Willow as well.

It felt very two dimensional to me. They didn't really get an arc, and I know that it's not about them, but I kind of wanted an arc for them.

Yeah.

That's really interesting. I felt like it was very. Like there wasn't a lot of screen time, so to speak. I didn't feel like their characters were lacking in a lot of ways. I got a good idea of Saul's personality and his journey versus Rose's. I think it's more of a quote unquote issue of it being the book is entirely from.

Yes. Oh, yeah, for sure.

So she isn't in either of their heads, able to kind of extrapolate more from them. But like, I, I, Saul used to be a counselor at Camp Damascus. He's also former gay or whatever. And I, I just love when she first rolls up onto his farm because she's like, I. She basically just picks the person on the list who lives the furthest.

Yeah.

From the church and like, the area where the church is. And so at first she's like, oh, no, I've found myself in a, you know, Texas chainsaw murder place. It's like this old dilapidated farmhouse, like, out in the middle of empty fields with, like a bunch of junk cars everywhere and everything. But then as she gets closer, she realizes that. No, actually, like, now that she looks, these cars are being maintained and used for parts. And while the house might be a bit run down, it's obvious that someone who cares about, like, their home lives here, which I just feel like that's a good. There's a lot of guys that you'll meet, like Saul, who are covered in tats and listening to the most angry music that you've heard in your entire life. But if you actually, you know, talk to them and get to know them a bit more, you'll realize that it's a. It's kind of not a front, I would say, but it's just a, you know, that's just their exterior and inside they're not that different.

It's like a marshmallow when you, when you burn it and it's a little crispy, and then you bite in. You're like, oh, God, he's just a little crispy on the outside. He likes his grind core.

He loves his grindcore. Yeah, they. I really like their, like, montage together. It obviously is, like you said, it's very short. They're obviously getting towards a goal at the end of this book. And we don't meet Saul until what, chapter eight of a 13 chapter book.

So I was convinced.

It's a little rough.

I was convinced at this point that we were not going to Camp Damascus. I was like, it doesn't exist. I don't think we're going. So I feel like if I had the expectation that if I was going into it thinking we're going to camp, I think I might be disappointed at this point because I would realize that it might not happen until either later or like at all. But I kind of didn't read the back flap or anything like that. So I was like, I don't know, maybe it's not real, maybe we're not going.

And I did a lot of the reviews that I looked at after finishing one of the biggest complaints. And I. This is the thing that I struggle with a lot because I. I try not to put my expectations on media and obviously that's not, you know, fully possible. You're always going to have expectations going into something. But there was a lot of reviews that were straight up just like, I thought this was going to be a fun slasher and it wasn't and I didn't like it because of that.

So you might have noticed that this episode is called Part one. And that's because we had a lot to say about this book and so did Caius. Yes, it's Beth and Marie here from the future.

From pretty far in the future, actually.

We will see you next time for part two of Camp Damascus, which we hope you will enjoy and we hope you enjoyed this Part one. And that's all, folks.

That's all.

Thanks for listening. And if you want more from us, our social media is in the show notes as well as a link to our discord where you can join the conversation and suggest books that we will maybe make one episode out of. Maybe two. Who knows? Depends on how much we have to say about it.

Depends on how much we feel like yapping that day.

Truly. Or over a few days.

Yeah.

In it, in some cases. So get out there and commit some David behavior.

Bye.

Bye.

Super hot.

This is my voice for when I'm reading horror books. Out of his eyeballs they witness Tell.