Welcome to David Behavior, a horror book review podcast. I'm Marie.

And I'm Beth.

And today's David Behavior is using the gloom to live forever.

It is.

Isn't it always, though? I feel like the search for immortality is always the David Behavior.

It really is, though. That's kind of what David wanted to be. The perfect being.

Exactly.

He wanted to. To produce the most perfect organism. And that's kind of what's going on here. No spoilers.

No spoilers. But that is kind of what's going on here. Yes. Before we get into our no spoiler summary and just wanted to give a reminder to support your local bookstore. You can do that by purchasing a physical copy of the book that we are reviewing today, which is Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno Garcia. You can also get that by using the Libro FM website to pick up an audiobook, and it is also available on Libby or at your local library.

That's where I got it.

Nice.

Yeah.

And you read the audio version this time? Correct.

Incorrect. The first time I read it, I listened to the audiobook, which is a great experience. Would recommend.

Okay.

I think both experiences are good, but I thought the narrator was really good. And as somebody who doesn't speak Spanish, I thought it was really nice to have the Spanish names and words read for me, because in reading them, I would have had to look them up to sort of get the pronunciation.

Yeah.

Or be a white person and just assume I knew how to pronounce them.

I mean, isn't that also kind of a theme of this book? No spoilers. Anyway, let's. Let's do a quick description before we get too far down that train of thought. In this month's book, socialite Noemi is sent to the mostly abandoned town of El Triunfo to check on her cousin Catalina, who had recently married into the Doyle family. Catalina had sent a letter to Noemi's father indicating that she was being held in the house against her will, that she was being poisoned, and that she was seeing ghosts. So naturally, Noemi's dad thinks that she's being melodramatic, but he does care enough about his niece to send Noemi to check on her after his communication with Catalina's new husband, Virgil, fails.

Yes, that is also a theme of this. Assuming that women are being melodramatic. That word is used a lot.

That word is used a lot.

As well as hysterical, historical, and anxiety is also used a lot. Yeah.

Yeah.

Fun.

Very fun. Interestingly enough, though, like this. This book. I really, really enjoyed it overall.

So oh, me too. Yeah.

Despite the. The sad things.

Yeah.

So I guess to touch on some similar media. This reminded me, inevitably, as all gothic horror does, of Crimson Peak, as directed by Guillermo del Toro, who.

Hey.

Also Mexican.

I've never seen it.

We need to watch it.

Okay.

Crimson Peak is a fantastic movie. I highly recommend it to fans of gothic horror and fans where the ghosts are literal, but also allegories, which is always fun.

I would recommend, in terms of books, what Moves the Dead by T. Kingfisher. I had a movie one, though.

Ooh.

So I think we're going against form. I was getting big get out vibes from the beginning.

I definitely see that. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I think that that would be a good watch for very similar vibes, especially when you're talking about the theme of racism eugenics that is brought up in both get out and this book. Yeah. Comic content, warning, eugenics.

I did also put the Fall of the House of Usher just in the sense that what Moves the Dead is based on the Fall of the House of Usher. So I would say read both just because the Fall of the House of Usher is short. And I think you'll get into that sort of gothic vibe by reading all of these.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. I also feel like the Fall of the House of Usher is a decent primer for this book on its own.

Oh, for sure.

I wouldn't 100% call this an adaptation, but I do see, like, a lot of inspiration from the Fall of the House of Usher in this book.

For sure. Yeah. And this book is set, just to be clear, in the 1950s. So there are obviously some gender things at play, as we noted or alluded to in the no spoiler description. So the Fall of the House of Usher is obviously set in the 1800s when Poe wrote it. This book is set in the 1950s, and we can see a lot of the same gender discourse, even though Poe, I don't think, was discoursing on gender intentionally. Silvia Moreno Garcia is for sure. But you can do a bit of a comparison in gender studies between the two stories, I feel.

Absolutely. I fully agree with that. Especially when you get down to the fact that what brings Noemi to El Trionfo and the High Place, as they pretentiously call their house in this is a letter from her female cousin, whereas in Fall of the House of Usher it is a male protagonist answering the summons of a male friend of his. So, like, it kind of fully flips it on its head.

Yeah, well. And as well, there's a lot of things that get flipped on their head, which, when we get into the spoilerful plot points, I'll point them out. But yeah, I really enjoyed that part of it, and I think that would be a good primer for sure. And in terms of sort of a preamble, like you said, I already read this one, but it was really fun to reread it and to see all of the clues and references and I guess, I don't know, maybe I was just enjoying listening to the book the first time. I don't think I necessarily put together everything at the very end. I don't think it's possible necessarily to put together everything, but it's sort of neat to see the clues that are there through the text as you're reading through it, knowing what the ending is.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And for me. So this came from my trending recommendations list. Obviously I had heard quite a lot about it and I'd been looking forward to. To reading it because I'm Mexican American. My family is. Well, I'm. I think I'm third generation at this point, but so my family comes from Mexico. And it was really interesting for me to read kind of a take on the. The 1950s Mexican social dynamics, as it were, and kind of compare that to what I've heard from family members over the years. But like you said, this. This could easily fit into kind of more of the modernization of a classic. It's not exactly an adaptation, but it is modernizing a lot of the themes and discussion in Fall of the House.

Of Usher, for sure.

And I read the ebook specifically for this review and I really enjoyed it. It is, it is our first book that we've read so far that I have gotten through in basically one sitting. I had to take a break because there are some mega trigger warnings that happen in this particular novel. So I did take a little break, but I finished it in a day, which has not happened with any of our other reads so far.

Yeah, it's really easy to go through. Like the. The writing flows really well and I really enjoyed the descriptions not only of the flowers and the like, foliage and other plants that we won't necessarily talk about, but a lot of those descriptions were really pleasant to read. I really liked them and I enjoyed also the descriptions of Noemi's fashion. I thought that was really. I don't know, it wasn't like symbolic of anything, but I thought it was really neat. I really enjoyed reading about it.

Oh, 100% the same. And I do think that there is some symbolism in the way that she dresses herself, because she dresses for battle basically every time she chooses an outfit.

Yeah, that's true, I guess. Yeah. There's symbolism in that sense where she, as a character, chooses how she presents herself to the world. I do have notes on that, too. But where she chooses, I guess that includes how she dresses, but also how she acts and how the words she chooses and the attitude she puts forward to sort of manipulate how people see her.

Yeah, 100%.

I guess she chooses her mask.

Exactly. But, yeah, I agree with you on the descriptions, as. As you are aware, Beth, I don't know if I have mentioned this in any of the other books yet, but I have aphantasia. That means that I have no ability to visualize things. So, like, if people say, close your eyes and visualize an apple, I just see a black nothingness abyss in my brain. So sometimes overly descriptive books can put me off a bit because I feel like I'm having to, like, keep track of so many things in my head.

Yeah.

However, I did really enjoy Moreno Garcia's descriptions, and I felt like she hit that good balance of where I was able to kind of put myself in this scene without feeling like I had to hold on to all of these, like, extra descriptions at the same time.

That's really interesting. I didn't actually think about that, but that's true, I feel like. And all of the descriptions are very complementary to each other. You can sort of think about a previous description that she used in a different scene and compare and contrast them and how some characters are described in comparison with other characters and things like that.

Yeah.

And what attributes are emphasized.

100%.

So is it time?

I think it is. Before we get into the spoilerful plot points where we're gonna go over the plot of this book, we should list the trigger warnings, because, like I said, there's a lot. So content warnings would include eugenics, attempted sexual assault, suicide, murder, including infanticide, cannibalism, incest, pregnancy, and pregnancy loss. Nothing, in my opinion, is explicit in the way that it is described. It doesn't linger over any of these topics, but they are present and you definitely see them in the world and in the descriptions that are given.

Yeah. The one scene that you were talking about, it's not necessarily descriptive in that it's gross, but it is descriptive and visceral in the sense that you are in Noemi's head as it's happening. So the experience of it is as if it is happening to you.

Exactly. Yes, exactly. So if you're sensitive to any of these topics, take a little caution as you read, and feel free to take a break, like I did.

And we will put these also in the show notes, which you have already seen, probably.

Hopefully.

Hopefully.

If you haven't, you should take a look right now, because there's a link to our discord down there, and you should definitely join the discord.

Hey.

Hey. All right. You ready to get into this, into this plot?

Let's do it.

All right. Our plot opens with Noemi at a costume party with her date. What was his name? Harold? Henry?

Hugo.

Hugo. He's a total himbo, and I do feel a little bad for him in this opening because they are getting a taxi because their driver is gone, because they're leaving unfashionably early from this party, and poor Hugo is wearing or carrying a giant horse mask. That was his costume for this party because Noemi was supposed to come as a jockey, and she decided at the last minute. I'm not feeling it. And she just came in an entirely different costume instead.

I love her so much.

It's extremely good.

I want to be Noemi.

Yes.

Yeah.

I honestly. Same.

Yeah.

But, yeah. So they're leaving unfashionably early because her father has summoned her home. She gets a taxi. She's kind of mean to Hugo and tells him that she likes it when he's pouting. And then when she does get home, she learns from her father that they have received a letter from her cousin Catalina, who had been married off. Well, she wasn't married off. She kind of elote with her fiance, and she has now written a very alarming letter talking about the fact that she's being held prisoner in. In the house and that she is seeing ghosts.

Right. And I love Noemi's attraction. Also. The letter from Catalina is so vague. Even having read the book, it's very clear that even as a warning, she was not lucid when she wrote it. Even knowing the ending and knowing what the deal is, I think she's still sort of under the influence of the gloom as she's writing this. It feels like, to me, absolutely.

She is extremely vague in the warning that she does give and the description of what's going on. She's talking about hearing voices. She's talking about how there's, like, people in the walls. And then, obviously, because A, she's a woman, and B, because of this letter, Noemi's father is a little dismissive.

Yeah.

When he's talking about it. But I do appreciate that even though he is kind of dismissive, he is still very, like, obviously worried about his niece, who we later found out, like, he took in after her parents died.

Yeah.

So he does care quite a bit about her. He's just. I mean. And to be fair, if I read that letter, I might think that my cousin was tripping as well.

Well, it's so interesting. Knowing the end of the book, it seems like Catalina wasn't given the same speech, I guess because she wasn't strong enough to, like, take in the gloom. Like she was sick from the gloom, whereas Noemi wasn't. So I think that maybe she just didn't get the same introduction as Noemi did. Because at the end, Francis gives her the whole speech about the Doyles and things like that. It gives her the whole history. It seems like maybe Catalina just didn't get that she wasn't deemed, like, strong enough.

Yeah, that's kind of the impression that I got. I got the impression that she arrived there and they tried their whole thing that we'll get into later, and that she just, like you said, that she wasn't, quote, unquote, strong enough for it.

Yeah, it seems like. I don't think she got the same treatment that Noemi did with Howard. That gross thing.

No, the.

The kiss. I think she was like, maybe long term, she was given the time to absorb the spores kind of thing.

Yeah, well, and I feel like, too, it sounds like she had a very different reaction to the spores than Noemi did. And that might have been part of what stopped her from getting the.

The speech. The explanation.

The explanation of what was going on.

And the visions, I guess, probably also.

Yeah.

Cause it seems like even Ruth didn't seem like. Didn't come to her in the same way. So maybe she just didn't, like, adapt to the house the same way that Noemi did.

Yeah, well, and it does sound like from her descriptions, Catalina seems like a very sensitive person.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that the house just kind of made her shrivel a bit. Like it weighed heavily on her. I do have her letter. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but to give an idea of what she sent, it starts, he is trying to poison me. This house is sick with rot, stinks of decay, brims with every single evil and cruel sentiment. I have tried to hold on to my wits to keep this foulness away, but I cannot. And I find myself losing track of time and thoughts. Please, please. Are cruel and unkind. And they will not let me go. I borrow my door. But they come, they whisper at nights. And I'm so afraid of these restless dead, these ghosts, fleshless things. So, like, it starts out, you know.

Yeah.

Reasonably like, oh, no, this is a woman who is afraid of what's going on in this house. And then it kind of immediately turns towards her visions of these ghosts and whatnot.

So I guess she is still communicating with the house in a sense, but I think that she's not getting the same visits that Noem. Like, I think that she's not necessarily communing with Ruth, I guess, is maybe the sense that I'm getting that she's more like. Yeah, maybe it was like the workers or something like that she was getting visions from.

Yeah. And that would make sense, too, because I do get the impression that Ruth was very much someone like Noemi. Ruth is a woman who had died in this house previously. And we'll get a little bit more into her later.

This is the spoiler section.

This is the spoiler section.

We spoil everything. You know who Ruth is. You read the book.

Yeah. You definitely read the book and aren't just listening to this episode. Right.

People have already listened to this, like, listened to our podcast at this point, and I've had several people mention that we called them out for not reading. So I'm doing it again.

Hell, yeah.

Calling you out.

Yeah, yeah. Ruth is the deceased daughter of the patriarch of the Doyle family, Howard, who went on a little bit of a murder spree when she found out what her family had lined up for her.

I mean, good.

Yeah, good.

I wish she had succeeded. I'm with Francis. She should have burned the whole place down.

Absolutely. But we don't know any of this yet because right now, Noemi's father is bribing her with the promise that he'll let her study anthropology at college, which is what she wants to do with her life. And like we mentioned at the top, this is set in the 1950s. Women going on to higher education was very unusual, especially when it was beyond, like, typical womanly studies.

Yeah. I was going to say she is allowed to go to university. She's just not allowed to study anthropology because her father doesn't see it as a useful area of study for a woman. Because she talks about going to university.

Yes. So that's the thing, is that she specifically has gone to university, but she went to the Feminine University of Mexico.

Yeah, yeah.

Which teaches you how to be a wife.

Yeah. Yes. Which is a valuable area of study for a Woman.

Oh. The only valuable area of study for a woman. However, if she goes and checks on Catalina, her father has promised that she'll be able to go to National University and study anthropology, which is what she is currently dreaming of. So she agrees. She's a little upset. She has to immediately leave. Yeah, but the train only travels to this town on Mondays.

Yeah. She doesn't even get to say goodbye to Hugo.

Oh, no, Poor Hugo.

Poor Hugo.

Poor Hugo.

Yeah. So she arrives in the town and is greeted by Virgil. No, not Virgil, sorry. She is greeted by Francis.

Correct. And this is where one of the themes of this book starts. Francis Doyle and his whole family are English. They don't allow people to speak Spanish at the Doyle estate, which is called High Place because it's British soil. Damn it. And we're gonna speak properly here, which.

Is very funny, because. Is it British soil? Is it. Is it.

Actually, I mean, they brought their own dirt. They brought their own dirt. So technically, spe.

Technically, I guess it's not their British soil. Whatever.

So, yeah, colonialism is a big theme in this. Colonialism and eugenics.

Yes.

Both are spoken about quite a bit in this book. And also to note, when Noemi does arrive in El Triompho, the town is very abandoned. Like, there are people, but there's not many people. It is clearly a town where there was a singular business that supplied jobs before, AKA the silver mine that used to be in operation. And now with it gone, a lot of people have left or very few remain, basically. She also notices that Frances is driving an extremely fancy car, but it's very old and hasn't been maintained the best, which ties into what her father had mentioned. Her father's kind of afraid that the Doyles were marrying Catalina to Virgil in order to get her money, because Noemi's family is very wealthy. They are in glass and dyes or something.

Yeah, yeah. Dyes. Like fabric? No, just dyes.

Just dyes in general. Right. Because she talks about, like, what they use to color glass. She talks about what they use to color fabrics. Like, she knows quite a bit about her dad's business, which is fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

But, yeah, Frances is kind of a sickly looking fella. Very quiet, very demure. Demure.

Oh, my God, this is such an old meme. We can't.

I will and you can't stop me. But, yeah. So he picks her up at the train station and drives her forever up the mountain to the Doyle estate, which they call High Place, which is the most on the Name naming of anything I've ever heard in my life.

On the nose.

Did I not say on the nose?

You didn't. You said on the name.

Oh, wow. That's because my brain is a cooked potato. But yes, on the nose. Right you are. When she reaches the high place, she meets Frances's mother, Florence, who is an extremely stern, strict woman with a huge list of rules that you have to follow in the house, Number one of which, no smoking. Which is a problem because Noemi thinks she looks pretty cool when she smokes.

Yeah. She's not wrong. I will also say that I had such trouble keeping the family straight. I know that that's kind of the point because they're all, like, incestuous. But I was trying to figure out. I was like, who is Francis's mother? Who is Virgil's mother? What's happening? It was very hard to keep straight in my mind. I didn't have a clear sense of the family tree.

Got you.

Even while I was listening to it. But it's not a big deal.

Florence's father was Howard's brother.

Right, Right, right, right.

So she is Howard's niece, and then her son is obviously Francis.

And Francis's father was an outsider. Richard.

Correct. And he died, unfortunately, not too long after he arrived. Definitely no foul play involved whatsoever.

No, no, no. For sure.

So Florence goes over this huge list of rules. There's no smoking in the house. You can't use hot water. You have to, because it, I don't know, will give you lurid thoughts. Like, a lot of the things that she lists as rules came off as the types of things that, like, back in the day, people would be like, oh, you can't, like, have hot water. That'll give you horny thoughts, basically. You know what I mean?

Like the reason that Kellogg made a cereal.

Exactly, Exactly.

Yeah.

As she accompanies her to her room, I will say I did enjoy the description of the house when they first arrive. It is the house loomed over them like a great, quiet gargoyle. It might have been foreboding, evoking images of ghosts and haunted places if it had not seemed so tired. Slats missing from a couple of shutters, the ebony porch groaning as they made their way up the steps to the door, which came complete with a silver knocker shaped like a fist dangling from a circle. And then she thinks about it as an abandoned shell of a snail, which. I don't know. I just really enjoyed that description.

I love that.

Yeah.

That's so great. It's so evocative.

Yeah. So Florence takes her to her room. As they walk down the hall, Noemi sees a lot of portraits and notes, how much everyone looks alike, which.

Nasty.

Yep.

Gross.

Nasty, disgusting, sick. She even says, like, she wouldn't have been able to tell them apart even if she looked closely. Like, she.

Yeah. Just like me.

Exactly.

Not being able to distinguish the family tree 100%. It's not. It's a. It's not a tree. What do they. What's the phrase? It's not a tree. It's a stock or something like that.

It's not a tree. It's a wreath.

I'm. I'm Googling it because I want to.

Okay. I was going to say, Beth, you've left. What happened?

Uh, whatever. It's fine. That's not. It's a lot of inspiring quotes about family. That's not what I'm looking for. We'll workshop this joke on our own time.

We'll definitely workshop this joke.

That'll be in the description. Don't worry. We'll put it in the description.

Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure. So after being in her horrible room that she hates already, the windows will not open. Like, she tries to secretly smoke and fails because the windows will not open. At dinner that night, Noemi meets Howard Doyle, the family patriarch, and he immediately is just like, oh, hey there. What do you think about eugenics? I can't.

With him just, like, testing the water in the worst way.

Yeah.

Like, don't you think some people are smarter? Some kinds of people are smarter than other kinds of people? Don't you think that's inherent to their nature? No, Howard. No. Why is this the subject of conversation for you?

Yeah, literally. He opens with merely an observation. Now, tell me, Ms. Tabuata, do you believe, as Mr. Vasconcelos does, that it is the obligation, no, the destiny of the people of Mexico to forge a new race that encompasses all races, a cosmic race, a bronze race. This, despite the research of Davenport and Steggerda. I can't pronounce names. I apologize. And she's like, you mean their work in Jamaica? Yeah. It's kind of gross. Like, she's just like, why are you bringing this up? He straight up asks her what her thoughts on the intermingling of superior and inferior types is.

Yes. Wild. Just wild.

All the while, the family just, like, sits there and watches this happening. Virgil, her cousin's husband, has not, like, even introduced himself to her at this point. They're just, like, watching her be accosted by this Gross old man.

Yeah. And, I mean, we know why. Well, yeah, at this point.

Yeah.

But. But yes. Weird.

It's very weird.

Gross. Weird.

Yeah. And then she finds out, apparently, that her cousin is suffering from tuberculosis. I forgot to mention, she does, like, manage to get five seconds with her a little bit before din. Florence is doing everything she can to make sure that Noemi and Catalina don't get to spend any time together. But she doesn't look like she has tuberculosis. And she's not acting as feverish as she seemed to be when she wrote the letter. But even at dinner, when she tries to, like, learn more about what's going on from Virgil, he just. He doesn't want to talk about it.

Yeah. He doesn't want to talk about it at all. Because he knows what is best for his wife. It's very clear that he sees his wife as property, and her sickness is his responsibility. And he has a doctor coming, and he's got it taken care of.

Yeah.

And doesn't care for. Well, not even doesn't care for. He has no regard at all for Noemi's concern. His concern is paramount. And he doesn't care what Noemi thinks about it, and he doesn't care what Noemi thinks, period.

He doesn't care what women think. Period.

Yes. Yeah. For sure.

I despised this man from the moment he was on. I'd say screen, but on the page.

Psychopath. Absolute psychopath.

Yeah. He does not give the impression of a man who is concerned about his wife's illness at all.

No. The modern equivalent would be like. I mean, in. Get out, there's the brother. Right. That's who I would equate him with.

Yeah. Yeah. I. That. Yep. That's a good.

Just, like. So, like, such a predator. Because he doesn't give a shit if you live or die. Because everything is centered around him.

Yeah.

Like, it doesn't matter. Your pain doesn't matter. Your pleasure doesn't matter. Nothing you do matters at all.

Exactly. At all. At all whatsoever. The only thing that matters is what he wants.

Yeah.

And his feelings, which. Wow. For someone who is such a big, strong man, he sure is a little baby when his feelings are hurt.

Yeah.

But anyway, the next day, Frances gives Noemi a tour of, like, the grounds around the house. Lets her get outside, have a cigarette. They end at the English cemetery, like, the entrance, which. It's called the English cemetery because only English people are buried there. Because we wouldn't want any of those Mexican workers buried in the cemetery. And so the Doyles own A silver mine that is no longer operational. Assumedly it ran out of silver. But what we know is that the quote, unquote epidemic that happened decades ago was not what people think. And all the English miners that died are buried here, right next to the High Place. I hate that they call it High Place.

It's bad. I just want to note as well, speaking about soil, I wrote down a quote from Howard from earlier or later. I wrote down a quote from Howard where he says, when you transplant a flower, you must consider the soil, mustn't you? And again, rereading. I was like, oh, gross. That's such a nasty thing to say. Because he knows what he's talking about. But, you know.

Yeah. And you definitely, like, even on a first read, when you don't know exactly what he's talking about, you do very much get the impression that Howard is someone who is lording something over the people that he's speaking to at all times.

Yeah. Immediately superior. Assuming that he is superior over everyone and is entitled to their worship. Or they're entitled to their regard.

Yeah, 100%. So Noemi manages to. Oh, I almost forgot about this, though. You brought up her starting to see Ruth.

Oh, yes. Yeah. So she starts to have dreams, and she starts to see Ruth. We don't know it's Ruth. She thinks it's just a woman, but later on we learn it absolutely is Ruth. And she is told to press her hands against her ears. And that will be important later. We get the repeated instruction to open your eyes. Open your eyes, which I think is also very important. But this is the first and last time she's told to press her hands against her ears. And I feel like that's almost more important, but maybe not in the moment. And I will also say, Catalina says that it's cold and dark and damp at the. At High Place.

High Place, yes. Which we all know what loves the cold and dark and damp. And it's our favorite thing in the world.

Gollum mushrooms.

Oh, shoot. You're right. I said. I said our not your favorite thing in the world. Yeah, you're right. I will say, also at this point, Noemi notices mold on the walls. Everywhere.

Everywhere.

But she. She takes note of it in her room at this point. So she does manage to spend a little more time with Catalina. Catalina seems more lucid the next time that Noemi speaks to her, and she asks her to go into town and get a tincture from a local healer named Marta. Noemi, of course, agrees to help because she's rightfully convinced that no one's doing anything to actually help her cousin. So she manages to convince. No, no, this isn't the time that she convinces Frances.

No, no. She. She drives herself.

Yeah. She takes the car and drives into town. She meets with Marta. I love Marta. Marta is a very good character.

Yes.

I love that she fleeces Noemi for a bunch of cigarettes and money.

But, like, willingly, like, it's. Noemi knows what's going on.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

And in the process, Noemi learns quite a bit, including information about Ruth, the daughter.

This is Howard's daughter, right?

Yes, Howard's daughter, Ruth. She learns that Ruth went on a shooting spree in High Place and killed many of her family members, including her own fiance, AKA her cousin. And she tried to kill Howard, but Howard didn't die.

Yes.

And Marta believes that the. Either the Doyle family themselves are cursed or that the house is cursed.

Why not both? Yeah. And I also, just on the subject of her mannerisms and character, Noemi, the other quote that I wrote down is that a woman who is not liked is a bitch, and a bitch can hardly do anything. All avenues are closed to her. And I just like that. That's the way that Noemi thinks. It's just. I don't know. It's just so good, because it's. It's always how she can present herself to the world in order to accomplish her goals. It's not necessarily about authenticity. It's about getting what she wants by any means necessary. And honestly, I appreciate that. I think that's a great way to survive in the 1950s as a woman.

Absolutely. Like I said, every time that she is getting dressed and it's described, it's very clear that she is choosing carefully in order to present, like, the face that she thinks will get the results that she wants.

And I'll be clear. I say that it's great. However, I would not want to live that way necessarily. I'm glad that I get to live now where I have the freedom to live my authentic life. And I don't necessarily have to manipulate people constantly. But there is part of me that does have to choose the way that I dress and the way that I present myself in the same way. There are, like, echoes of that. Maybe not to the same extent that Noemi does, but there are definitely echoes of that.

Absolutely. Also note, too, when she is discussing things with Virgil, it starts here, and it carries on, and I hate it so much. He keeps calling, calling her little girl.

Yes. I made a mental note that if he was like, if this was, like, a person in America, like a Texan or something, be like, little lady, you know, just, like, diminutive. Yeah, yeah, that same sort of vibe. And I mean, little girl is already pretty bad.

I almost feel like it's even more, like, dismissive than little lady.

True.

Because at least you're acknowledging her as a lady when you say it. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, it's just. It's gross.

Calling her a little girl is super gross, especially considering what is to come from this man.

It's pretty gross. And it's. I mean, I would also say in terms of Virgil not caring about her, he seems to be just, like, amused by her attempts to adapt, to try to get what she wants. Like, he knows what she's doing, and he doesn't care.

Yeah, yeah. So while she is in town, Noemi also goes to a local physician, Dr. Camarillo, and convinces him to come and give a second opinion because she does not think that Catalina has tuberculosis. Like, it. It doesn't make any sense. And when he does eventually come and examine her, he agrees that this is not presenting, like any case of tuberculosis that he has ever seen, and that she should probably see a psychiatrist because she starts, you know, ranting a bit while he's there. And immediately, though, Virgil is like, oh, that local yokel. He doesn't even have a beard. I have no respect for his opinion. And since this is Mexico in the 1950s, I make all the decisions for my wife, and I've decided that she doesn't need a psychiatrist.

Right. He immediately dismisses. Even though this man is a doctor, the lack of a beard is almost, like, feminizing. Right?

Yeah.

He's young and can't grow a beard. Therefore, I'm able to dismiss his opinion. It's like. Okay, so I guess I'm just trying to carry on that sexuality and textuality, the gender theme, where he doesn't see women as people.

No. 100%. And he does the same thing to his own cousin Francis quite a bit as well.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Because Francis is not a. A typical manly man. He is thin, and actually, at one point, you were talking about him carrying his father's picture.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We can talk about that. So I think Francis displays a lot of, I guess, feminine energy. His hobbies are art. He's an artist. He's very thin and willowy. He carries around a portrait of his father. I think it's so sweet, and I love it. And I think it plays into that role reversal where Noemi is the hero, clearly, and Francis is sort of the sidekick to that. If we were talking about, you know, stereotypes.

Yeah.

And he's definitely the more passive player in this. He still has the opportunity to stand up and he gets character growth. But him being more passive definitely projects that feminine energy onto his person. And that also makes it easy for Virgil to dismiss him. But I love Francis.

I do, too.

I have a point later on where each of their demeanors towards Noemi are kind of analyzed, like, back to back, where she goes to Virgil's room and then she goes to Frances room, and the two are completely different energies that Noemi is greeted with and that she reacts with. When we get there, I'll talk about it. But that was kind of the really interesting part when I was reading, being able to compare the two.

Yeah, absolutely. They are two very different representations of what it is to be a man. And I think that in a lot of ways, it's really interesting because typically, like, when you're reading one of these books, it is. And by one of these books, I mean something within, like, the Gothic horror genre.

One of these books, eh?

One of these books. You know, one of those books. One of these books within the Gothic horror genre, the woman is the one that needs to be rescued.

That's right.

Like, 99.999% of the time, there are more modern books that, you know, riff on that, obviously. And this is one of those. And throughout the course of the book, it ends up being Noemi who ends up, like, rescuing Frances and rescuing her cousin and, like, rescuing herself.

That's right.

And there's one part where Noemi is trying to make peace with Florence because Florence is being Florence, and she apologizes for, like, cajoling Francis to go into town with her or whatever. And Florence is like, you just need to leave him be. Like, he has to accept his life. And I love Noemi's thoughts. Noemi went back to her room. She thought about all the times Catalina had narrated fairy tales. Once upon a time, there was a princess in a tower. Once upon a time, a prince saved the girl from the tower. Noemi sat on the bed and contemplated the notion of enchantments that are never broken. And I love the placement of Noemi in the role of the prince that saves the princess.

Yeah. And, yeah, in the end, she does. And I think it's beautiful.

I do, too.

And I think that Francis is given strength by Noemi's presence, that he's allowed to be strong because she's there to Be strong for him 100%. So he's able to kind of break out of that. It's great.

Yeah.

I can go into the description, like, comparison if you want.

Yeah, sure.

So she visits Virgil in his room because what happens is that Catalina gives her a piece of Ruth's diary, and she sees the reason that Ruth did all these things. And she sees that Ruth is not so, like, dangerous. She wasn't crazy. She just saw what was happening in the house and was attempting to rectify the situation. Essentially, she goes to confront Virgil first. And the scene is a lot about Virgil controlling the space. He's trying to tell her to sit down. He's shirtless at first, so he's trying to make her feel off kilter by just being shirtless. He gestures to the chair to make her sit. She describes the chair as hard and uncomfortable. And in all ways, he's trying to control the conversation. And then she goes to Frances room to talk to him about Ruth and about the diary that she found or that she was given by Catalina. And Frances asks about her, offers her tea. She goes around and, like, looks at his art. And she's clearly very comfortable in his presence. He doesn't try to cajole her or get anything out of her. And he lets her steer the conversation. And the only reason it ends is because he can sense that Uncle Howard is in pain again and that others will be coming for him to go to his room. But she sits in the chair in Francis's room. She, you know, looks at his art. She is comfortable conversing with him in a casual way because she knows that he's not trying to manipulate her or control her. And I just think it's very interesting to put those two side by side. The very stark difference in their behaviors towards her.

Yeah, absolutely. And it honestly mostly comes down to the fact that Frances views her as a person and someone whose opinions matter and Virgil does not.

Yeah. Frances cares about her and wants to know what she thinks. This is where he speaks to her in Spanish and tells her to leave.

Yeah.

And this is also where Noemi wants to kiss him, but she doesn't, because she knows that kisses matter in some contexts, that she would love to just kiss and have it not mean anything, but she knows that if she does it, it will mean something.

Yeah. Which I love, too, because it's character growth for her as well, because up until now, whenever she thinks about, you know, dating and men in general, it's very clear that she's not ready to settle down with Anybody. And I don't. I still don't think that she's ready to settle down with anybody.

No. No.

But I do think that what she values in a man changes quite a bit because of her experience at the house and specifically because Virgil is so much like the typical man that she would date.

Yes.

Versus Francis. But now that she's actually gotten to know Francis and, like, sees him for the person that he is, like, that is what she is more attracted to.

Yeah, for sure.

Let's. Let's rewind a little bit.

I bet you're wondering how I got here.

Hi. That's me. I bet you're wondering how I got into this situation. So, as you mentioned, Francis is into botanical art and nature. And he shows Noemi his collection of spore prints. And they have a pretty nice day. Like, they spend time together. And Virgil is notably a little about this, which even before, like, any of the worst things that he does, I was already like, mother, like, what are you doing? This is your ailing wife's cousin. Like, what are you doing? Like, acting flirty with her and trying to make her feel bad about spending time with your single cousin Francis.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, who cares? Let them live.

Just let them live their lives. But this night is when Noemi starts having not just dreams, but nightmares. She sees Ruth walking through the hallway holding a rifle and going into Howard's bedroom to shoot him. But when she sees Howard, he is like this bloated, disgusting, like, not even human looking figure in the bed, and the walls around them are made of flesh. Like, it is a nauseating dream. And I think that Moreno Garcia did an excellent job describing it because it made me feel squicked out.

It was so gross. Not as gross as the upcoming scene, but very gross.

Yeah.

And it's so funny because honestly, Virgil's behavior is more disgusting than that. Than that description where he wakes her up and, like, gives her his jacket and she's like, gross. I don't want it.

And notably, she has been sleepwalking. And Virgil, like you said, wakes her up. His offer of the jacket obviously calls back to Francis earlier, offering his sweater.

Yeah.

Which she not only has kept, but has used multiple times since, like, he lent it to her because. Yeah, because Francis is a sweetie.

Francis is so sweet.

I can't tell you how many of my notes for this book were, please, God, don't let him be a freak like the rest of his family, because I was terrified that they were going to do a rug pull and make this, like, absolute sweetheart become like, the villain mastermind the whole time.

Whereas my read this time was, like, just enjoying Francis and how sweet he is. So that was pleasant for me personally.

I'm so glad to hear that. I'm so glad. But, yeah, Virgil's gross. He offers his jacket. She doesn't want to take it. She doesn't even want him to walk her back to her room, but she lets him because it's dark and, like, there's. Oh, forgot to mention. There's no electricity at this freaking house. Or at least not enough to light lights. So they have to use candles and oil lamps. So, like, she's like, fine, you can walk me back to my room.

Well, and this is where she sees them having a truce. She offers a truce, and maybe they can be friends, but I don't think either of them really mean it.

No, absolutely not. So the next day, she has. Because she got in trouble for taking the car, because apparently that was against the rules, even though they never said that it was against the rules. So instead, she asks Frances to take her into town so that she can pick up that tincture from Marta. But is this when she discovers the rash on her wrist?

It is, yeah. So she discovers the rash on her wrist, and she picks up the tincture. She goes to the doctor again and shows the rash, and he gives her some zinc.

And when he checks it out, he tells her that it reminds him of mala mujer, which is a plant that is in English called like a bull metal. But interestingly enough, it's also can be called finger rot, which I think is. You know, that's an intriguing thing, considering Catalina's description of the house as rotting, as well as Noemi's observation about that sort of thing.

Yeah.

While she's in town as well, though, she does learn a little bit more about the Doyle family's history from Marta, who tells her why, or at least why she thinks that Ruth killed her family. And it ends up that Ruth fell in love with an outsider, specifically a Mexican worker named Benito. And her father, obviously was super upset about it because he has his whole eugenics crap going on. And for other reasons. It was very important that she marry her cousin. And Benito was disappeared, assumedly by Howard, and assumedly he was killed. And that is what Marta and most of the townspeople, it kind of seems like they think that's why Ruth kind of snapped and attacked her family.

Right. I was going to mention that also in this sort of section, before she goes into town, Noemi is reflecting on mother as, like, a concept in her research, which I also thought was really interesting. It's a very. I guess it was kind of subtle to me. I guess it was kind of an obvious reference. But just considering what's going on in the crypt with Agnes, it's kind of an appropriate thing to mull on. This is also where Frances says that Ruth ought to have burned High Place to the ground because she brings up. Or Noemi brings this up to Frances as well. And I just like how easy she is to trust Francis. I guess I like it because I know that he's trustworthy, but I can see how it might be a bit nerve wracking if you think that he might end up turning on her for to see her trust him so readily.

Yeah.

Especially away from the house.

100. Well, and because, like, he goes with her to the doctor as well. And, like, so he kind of knows more of what's going on than she's been willing, obviously, to trust, like, anybody else with. So, yeah, it's. It's a little bit concerning when, like I said, every note about Francis that I have is, I love him. Please, please, please let him not be a horrible monster freak. Ew. I just remembered. When Virgil insists that she takes his stupid jacket, and then she goes to take it off, and he's like, you look good in my clothes. And I'm like, I hated it so much. He's such a nasty freak.

It's so funny because he tries to do the same, Like, I don't want to call what Noemi does manipulation, but he tries to do the same adaptation thing that Noemi does, but he does it so badly because he has no, like, instincts, because he has no. He doesn't care what people think of him. So he's trying to manipulate her by saying what he, like, you know, thinks she wants to hear. But he does it so badly, it's like, yeah, well.

And he absolutely underestimates her at every turn.

Like, oh, absolutely.

He's doing this crap with the expectation that, like, she is gonna be fawning over him.

Yeah.

Like, falling over herself.

Yeah.

And it's like, dude, learn to read the room. Like, she is not into you at all.

Well, he has no reason to read the room because everything has been handed to him his whole life.

Yeah.

So he doesn't, like, even women. Right. Like, he literally had his cousin handed to him.

Yeah. And that didn't work out.

No.

She finishes her stuff in town, they go back to the house. She immediately gets in trouble again because Florence is like, well, you didn't ask permission to go into town. And it's. It's this moving goalpost this family keeps giving to her. And I. It frustrates me so much.

I do enjoy that she continually smokes.

Yes.

Like, that's something that they keep reinforcing. And she's like, I don't give a shit.

Well, and I love that, too, because it's. She keeps comparing it to going to Catholic school. And I don't have any personal experience with going to Catholic school, but my grandmother does, and I do, and you do. And from every story that, like, my grandma has told me about going to Catholic school, like, it is dead on. The type of. Like, there's two type of girls that go to Catholic school. The girls that, like, end up being very meek because the nuns are horrible to them, or the girls that keep smoking in the bathroom because, fuck those. Those nuns.

Yeah. And I think, obviously, my experience would be different than your grandmother's, and probably your grandmother's would be closer to Noemi's, I would assume.

Yeah, it was in the 1950s, so, yeah, it would be a little bit closer. Although it was in the United States versus in Mexico.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have any nuns.

So Noemi makes it back to the house, gets in trouble, because, of course she does. And Francis, like, it's noted that, like, Fran, like, for a couple of days, Francis is kind of avoiding her. And it's assumedly because his mother slash Howard have basically said, knock that shit off.

Same thing.

But she does manage to get some time with Catalina again. And she gives Catalina the tincture that she had asked for. And Catalina. Marta's like, all right, she can take. She should just take one tablespoon, but she should be okay to take two tablespoons. And meanwhile, Catalina is, like, over there guzzling down four tablespoons before. Before Noemi, like, manages to wrestle the spoon away from her, basically. And unfortunately, she immediately goes into seizures, which we know from future that this tincture has a. A inhibiting effect against the. The spores that have infected people in this house. But for poor Noemi, she's just like, oh, no. What did I do? Like, she's.

Yeah, she feels.

I felt so bad for her in this because, like, everyone. Everyone. Everyone's attacking her about what happened. They're telling her that she almost killed her cousin. They're telling her that it was like, an opium tincture and that it caused a seizure somehow. And that, like, Noemi is still strong, though, despite, like, the stress that she's going through in this moment. And she refuses to share where she got the tincture because she doesn't want Marta to end up disappeared. Like, freaking bonito was. Yeah, it's really bad. Francis. Like, even though, like, his family has obviously told him, like, you're not allowed to talk to Noemi anymore or anything, he still manages to, like, reassure her. And he's like, I'll come get you, like, when something happens. I promise. Like, just, you know, stay here for now so that they don't continue to berate you, basically.

Right.

It's. It's bad. There's a lot of interesting things, too, where, as all of this is happening. And after the doctor comes, Francis mentions something about how he's tired, like, he can't go the next day to town or whatever, because Uncle Howard is keeping them awake at night. And it's said to be because of an old injury that he has. But with foresight.

But also, how does Uncle Howard keep them awake? So I think, like, the implication, if you don't know what's going on, is that he's requiring their aid. Their, like, medical aid. But I think what it actually is is that they could hear him in their heads.

Yeah.

And that he's keeping them awake because he's, like, howling in their heads because he's in pain.

Yeah. And to this point, Noemi has heard that a couple of times. At this point, there's no indication in the text that it is in the brain.

No, no, no, no.

She thinks she is actually, like, that sound is carrying very weirdly in this house. But it's not till later that we realize it's because of this connection that these spores cause to everybody in the house. So he's literally, like. They're literally being kept awake by his pain and agony throughout the night. And that just sounds horrible. That sounds so bad.

Yeah.

You want to tell us about the weird dream?

She had a dream that night that is of note.

Yes.

So the dream is that the house turns into plants, carpets of moss. There's vines and flowers. In her previous dream, the house was meat. In this one, it's plants. Yeah. Long, thin stacks of mushrooms glowing a pale yellow. She goes to the cemetery to view a ritual. She hears voices. So she sees a woman in labor, and she sees a little girl, as well as some men with lanterns. So the little girl is sitting in a chair, and it's very notable that a man and a little girl are sitting in a chair separate to everybody else who is on the ground with this woman who is in labor. She notices that the man has a ring on his hand, a ring of amber. As the woman gives birth, the man says, death overcome. The quote that I'll read is. But when he raised his arms, Noemi saw that he held no child. The woman had given birth to a gray lump of flesh, almost an egg shaped, covered in a thick membrane and slick with blood. It was a tumor. It did not live, yet it pulsated gently. The lump quivered, and as it did, the membrane ruptured and slid aside. It burst, sending a golden cloud of dust into the air. And the man breathed in the dust. Yeah. And everybody tries to touch the dust, and it's like, clearly the spores.

Oh, yeah. A mushroom. Yes.

And everybody forgets about the woman. The man is hoisting the lump above his head. The little girl smothers the woman with a cloth, and she is unceremoniously burned.

Yeah. Once again, just showing how disposable women are to this family and to this.

Mm.

To Howard. Oh, Howard.

And it's notable that they make the little girl do it.

Yes.

As well.

Forcing women to inflict violence against other women.

Mm.

Yeah. This whole dream was wild to me. When I read this, I was so confused. I was like, oh, no. Is David here? Is this an alien? Is this a xenomorph egg that this woman has just birthed? Are we watching the newest Alien movie?

Well, and this does. Later on, you can kind of see the parallels to the actual ritual that Noemi does eventually see, where we do get infanticide and cannibalism, where the Doyle family eats the baby and the same thing happens. They eat the baby, same as how they absorb the spores. That's the parallel. And the woman is dumped into the fire. And in the case of the ritual, I don't even think she's fully dead. I think they just dump her in the fire after she's done.

Yeah.

Because all she was was the vessel.

Yeah, it's. It's really interesting. So, in terms of this dream, do you think that this is Ruth trying to tell Noemi what's going on, or do you think this is because of the connection to, like, Howard's mind? Like, this is some weird remembrance of him, of the ritual that is to come?

I think that is the combination of Ruth trying to tell Noemi what is happening, as well as a connection to the gloom? I don't know if Ruth necessarily is able to give her these visions. She was able to show her what she did in shooting Howard and shooting her family. But I think that this is, as a Result of the connection to the Gloom, maybe with Ruth's influence. That's my opinion. Maybe Ruth is, like, softening that so that she's not seeing the whole.

Yeah, that's what I was. That. That's the part that made me wonder, because she sees it not as an infant, but as this strange egg, basically, and witnesses, you know, the egg breaking open and the gold dust and everything, instead of.

Yeah.

Seeing it as what it actually was. So that was just. Yeah. I was just curious about your thought on that.

Yeah.

We also start getting a lot of Ouroboros symbolism around this part of the book. It is the Doyle families. It's not officially their crest. They don't officially have a crest because they're. They're not. They're not anyone's.

No.

I cannot emphasize how much this white family is not anyone special. They just happen to be a rich English family that, like, took advantage of a small. A village in Mexico. Like, they are not anyone special.

They took advantage of a lot of things.

Oh, we'll get to the other things that they took advantage of.

Yes. They're like a white family who felt entitled to anything they wanted, basically.

Yeah. It is so infuriating when we do learn the truth of how the Gloom was, quote, unquote, discovered, because obviously it's been around for much longer, but, like, a lot of things. Howard was like, no, this is. I did this. This is my thing.

Yeah.

Well.

And they even. We learn early on that it's not their silver mine. They basically stole it.

Yeah. It was the Spaniards originally who made it. And then they came and they were like, actually, it's ours now. We're here now.

Yeah. Colonialism.

Colonialism. So, like we mentioned, Francis is very tired, but he does make time, once again, to take Noemi into town, despite. Despite his family's reactions and everything going on. He's. He's so good. I love him so much. So she tries to visit Marta, but Marta is not home. And at first she's worried, and I would be, too, because, like, my assumption would be that, oh, like, this family has murdered this poor woman who just made a tincture for somebody. But he. But she does visit Dr. Camarillo, and he tells her that Marta tends to go out of town to, like, visit her daughter and gather herbs. But he does tell her, oh, no, it's impossible that this is opium. Like, Marta wouldn't have been making an opium tincture. That's something that you can get at a pharmacy. That's not something that she gets from local Herbs that. That she makes into medicine here.

Yeah.

So Noemi's not 100% sure what to think of this information, like, because obviously it had some sort of effect on her, but she's. Now, she doesn't even know what it was like to start with. But she keeps waiting to get an opportunity to speak to Catalina again. But Florence is making sure that she does not have unsupervised access to Catalina anymore. And this is when Catalina passes her that torn page from Ruth's diary. And she realizes that Ruth planned to kill her father, Howard, because he had beaten and abused her. Like, not just because of Benito, but also seems like throughout her life, like, she had been abused growing up in this house. And she does not want to marry her cousin, and she. Her one opportunity to leave has been taken away. So she does what she does. Noemi is kind of shocked because this doesn't sound like the writings of a crazy woman. This doesn't sound like the writings of a woman who lost her mind and killed her family. So she wants to learn more about Ruth. And this is when she goes and finds Francis in his bedroom and tells him her theory, which is that the house is haunted, but not in a ghostly way, but rather that there's something in the walls, a chemical or a toxin that is making people sick, that. That made Ruth sick and think that she was hearing voices. That made Catalina sick and think that she's hearing voices. And at this point, she doesn't say this out loud, but that has made Noemi sick and is making her hallucinate the mold, like doing dances across the wall.

Well, as well that we didn't mention her wrist. The injury on her wrist was healed immediately. She had forgotten to use the zinc. And in fact, her injury was made worse by Virgil when he grabs her arm after Catalina has her seizure. And her wrist is healed, though, regardless.

Yes. And it's right after she kind of trances out, staring at the wall, like, thinking that she is seeing this mold, this fungus that's on the wall, like, moving and glowing, and she's entranced by it and drawn to it, but, like, she gets snapped out of it. And then, like you said, she notices, oh, my wrist is perfectly fine now, which is.

Well, the doctor notices. The doctor notices when they're in town, he.

He goes to change the zinc because she forgot about it, and it's perfectly fine. Francis, at this point, like you mentioned, he switches to Spanish so that nobody can overhear them. Assumedly, Francis is the only one who really speaks Spanish.

Yeah, well, that's what he mentions when he picks her up. He said, I can speak Spanish, no worries. But it's. Oh. But he says it's forbidden at the house. So I think even if they could, they don't.

Okay. He switches to Spanish and he's basically telling her that she needs to leave. Like, she needs to leave High Place immediately. It's not safe.

Get out.

You might say that, Beth. You might say that, indeed. He tells her to get out. And then loud moaning interrupts their conversation. And this is Howard, and he says, Francis says you need to leave. Everyone's gonna, like, come. Because they expect me to go.

Yeah.

And then we get the first dream that Noemi has in regards to Virgil.

And I mean, not a dream, clearly not a dream.

Obviously not a dream, but she thinks it's a dream as it's happening because it is partially influenced by the spores and everything that's going on. She decides to go take a hot bath, which is against the rules, but she decides to go take a hot bath and she ends up getting really dizzy and kind of hallucinating again, like she did before. And then Virgil comes in and tries to force himself upon her while she's in the bathtub. It. Like we mentioned, it's not super descriptive, but it is a lot because we are in her point of view and she is obviously panicking. She can't move and she's not in control.

She's being coerced. He tells her what to do and she. Her body complies.

Yes.

Yeah. I don't know if we want to get into detail at all, really, about it.

No, I'm not going to get into detail. But through this, we learn that there is a mind controlling element to these spores because he issues a command and her body just does it without her thinking about it.

Well, even afterwards, when she wakes up, he says, have some wine. And she can't stop. Like she does it. So earlier that night, he said, sit in the chair. Like, he gestured to the chair for her to sit in it. She doesn't. But now he says, sit in the chair. Have some wine. And she does it even though she doesn't want to.

Exactly. So there's that whole scene. Virgil tries to play it off when she does wake up, because this is where Ruth's advice to her that we had talked about comes back. Ruth had said, cover your ears. Ruth had said, open your eyes. And she does manage to finally cover her ears with her hands. And when she does it kind of. She kind of has like a time A time skip that happens. And when she opens her eyes again, she is standing up, still wet from the bath. But Virgil tries to claim that she was sleepwalking. And, like, everyone in this house has been gaslighting her this whole time. And I actually made a note because she had been talking about these nightmares or whatever, and Virgil is trying to gaslight her and saying, like, you were dreaming, like, that was just a dream, like you weren't. Like you were sleepwalking, blah, blah, blah. And she says, like, this was different today. I was awake. And he interjects with, it all sounds very confusing. And she says, that's because you're not giving me a chance to talk. And then this is the part where I highlighted where it says you're very tired. He said dismissively. As he began to descend those steps, Noemi went down three more steps, attempting to maintain the same gap between them. Is that what you told her? You're very tired? Did she believe you? And so this is Noemi catching on to the fact that not only is she being gaslit, but most likely her cousin has been gaslit in the past with everything that is going on.

Well, and this is where, again, Virgil, like, I don't even think he cares if he's being convincing or not. He's just saying it because they don't matter. It doesn't matter if they believe it. Just he's just going to say whatever. And that's it. That's the truth because he said it.

Yeah, exactly. And so at this point, she makes a snap decision and she's like, I'm going back to Mexico City. Like, you need to drive me to town right now. I'm going home. And he's like, oh, we'll do it tomorrow. We can't right now because it's raining and we can't drive in the rain. And she isn't happy about it, but she agrees and they decide to have a going away dinner. And also it's time for everyone to go to Howard's room so that Noemi can say goodbye to him. Which even without everything else going on in this house. Can you imagine visiting someone's house and, like, before you leave, being forced to, like, go into their extremely sick relative's room and say goodbye? Like, that's so weird to me.

It is weird. It's weird. It would have been a better conceit if, like, I mean, it wouldn't have worked. But to be like, oh, say goodbye to your cousin or whatever. Yeah.

If they had lured her thinking that she was Gonna go say goodbye to Catalina. Like, that would have made more sense. But they're like, no, you have. The house has rules. And one of these rules is you have to go say goodbye to Howard when you leave.

Everybody does it.

Everybody does it. And this is not the first time she has been in Howard's room. And this is one of the other interesting things before we get into more assault. When she goes in his room the first time, she notices that his bed is flanked by portraits of two women who look extremely alike. And one of them is wearing the amber ring that matches his amber ring. And we later find out that this is Agnes, his first wife. And then we find out that the other wife looks so much like her because that's the little sister of the first wife, which is. We find out that Agnes and Alice went to live with him because their family died. Like, they're his wards. And then he married them.

Yeah. So the little girl.

Yeah, yeah, that was. That was Alice.

Great.

And great. Super fun. Anyway, she comes in, and Howard is just naked on the bed with these, like, horrible. What does she describe? Those, like, pustules.

Yeah.

On his leg.

Yeah. Sores. Pustules on his leg. And then the same thing on his mouth. Like, his face is also covered in black viscera and, like, pustules. And it's leaking out of his face.

Yeah. And he's described as very bloated. And it's. It's very akin to the way that she saw him in Ruth's vision of when she shot her father. And then. And then Virgil's like, you got. You gotta get closer to him. And she's like, do I. Do I really need to get closer to him? And they basically force her head down towards him, and he. Howard, shoves his tongue in her mouth. And it is. This is the most. I think, the most visceral and disgusting scene for me in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's gross. Everything's gross. This family's horrible, awful. And I want nothing more than for Noemi to get the fuck out of here. But first we have to have a series of visions.

Yeah. We learn about the indigenous people that took Howard in many, many years ago. And. Oh, yeah, more than 300 years ago, Howard found this cave with indigenous people who took him in and healed him with these mushrooms. And then he killed them. And he took the mushrooms, and then he brought the swale over to this silver mine. And it grew in the house, under the house, above the house, around the house.

Just the house. The house.

Just the house. Yeah, High place.

High Place.

Yeah. So she learns about that great, cool history.

Yeah. And also this is where she learns that it's the Gloom.

Oh, yeah. Which we talked about before recording that it's probably had a different name is the guess. But Howard calls it the Gloom, like.

A lame, gross colonizer. But, yeah. After seeing these visions and finding out the truth of what's going on, Noemi awakens in her room and Francis is trying to give her some water. And she's very angry with him, understandably, because, like, he was. He was there. He was in that room, and he did nothing to stop it. But she ends up listening to him after he begs her to, like, let him explain, basically. And he tells her that basically, when Howard found this fungus that extends human life, it kind of became a web that has entwined this entire family in its grasp. Like you mentioned. It's in the house. It's all over the house. It's everywhere. And there's no escape from it. And Frances informs her that, well, yeah, Howard arrived here, like, 300 years ago. And that's because every once in a while, when his body's about to give out, he transfers his consciousness into the Gloom, this network, this fungal network that has taken over this house, and then from there into the body of. And he notes, a willing recipient. I don't know how willing that can actually be, considering the effect of these spores on the people and also the fact that they're essentially being raised in a cult. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, we can see there's coercion going on. And we can see, like, even with Alice, Right. You can see that there is indoctrination and brainwashing happening.

Absolutely.

Like you said, it's very cult like.

And that the next recipient is supposed to be Virgil. And. And then he lets her know that although the Doyles are very. Well, we talked about eugenics earlier. They're very, very big on keeping the bloodlines pure. Due to that inbreeding, they're no longer able to produce viable offspring, which means that if they don't bring in some new blood, the buck stops with Virgil. And Howard is not about that. So it's been decided that Noemi is going to become a member of the.

Family because she is strong. And her reaction to the Gloom was positive. Question mark. Yeah, she had a not unpleasant reaction to the Gloom. She received it well, I guess, because she's strong.

Yeah.

So he says that Noemi was sort of given to Frances, that he's been allowed to marry her.

Yeah. Which Is. I mean. Yeah. And it all goes back to what we were discussing, like this, obviously, tons of colonialism, but also tons of sexism and just women as commodities to these people. Earlier in the book, when Howard describes his wives, he describes her as fruitful and that the only thing that matters is that she was able to give him children.

She did her job.

Yeah.

The portraits are very much like, these were my prize horses.

Yes.

It's not like, these were my beloved wives. It was like, look what a great job they did.

Yeah. And Noemi does find that interesting because he also states that when Agnes passed away, she was pregnant at the time, implying that she was never able to give birth. But, like, the statue of her in the garden says mother on it, which, looking back now with what we know, we know why that happened, because she became a mother for a whole new type of thing.

Yeah. Noemi's reflection on the word mother in her studies was very apt as well. And the fact that, again, Francis keeps a picture of his father is also very apt, because I think typically, it's like, mother is life giver. That's typically the parent who is looked on fondly by children in these sorts of tropes. It's typically like the absent mother, but in this case, it's the father. And I think. I think that's a good role reversal.

Yeah, for sure. And at this point, Francis has very clearly. He's like, there's nothing we can do.

Yeah.

This is just what's happening. I can't fight them. Like, I can't fight my family.

Basically, he feels very alone, and I think he sees Noemi as an opportunity to not be alone, which, like, I guess. I mean, I can see his perspective to a point, but, you know, it's sad to then drag her along into this.

Yeah, 100%. So, yeah, Lafrancis isn't innocent in everything, but he's the most innocent of them.

I will note that he did try and get her to leave earlier. He got very angry, and he said, you have to leave. You have to go. Like, he's. He tried to get her to leave several times, and she didn't understand. She thought, you know, he was rejecting her. But, yeah, he was really trying to save her. And I think they just reached the point of no return. You're beyond the Rubicon.

Beyond the Rubicon. So that night, Noemi has another nightmare. It's a reiteration of the first, very weird nightmare with the woman giving birth, except this time, like we kind of mentioned before, she gives birth To a child. And Howard takes that child, kills it and eats it. And it is. Oh, boy.

I can't. I can't.

No, not good. Disgusting. Disgusting. And then the woman is buried alive.

Yeah.

When Noemi wakes up, she's just happy to see daylight again. She tries running from the house. She flees. The front door is unlocked and she's able to begin running. However, the further she gets from the house, the more she is, like, struggling to breathe. Like she's having a physical reaction to leaving the network. I assume at this point, like, she's so infested that she can't be away from Mother Spore for too long.

Yeah.

After she collapses, Virgil finds her and brings her back to her bedroom. And once again, at this point, Virgil is a horrible human being. And we experience another attempt at assault. But Francis disrupts the situation that is happening, and Noemi is very relieved that that happens.

During the ritual, they say the Latin phrase, et verbum caro factum est. The word became flesh, and it's from the book of John. The word became flesh and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only son, of the Father, full of grace and truth. And mentioning the father again, the mother is the source of the mushroom. So this phrase is, I guess, trying to force the issue, trying to make it about Howard when it's not.

Yeah.

Also noting it's from a motet, which means that it's sung by six people, three at a time. So it's a chorus, which is, again, very appropriate for a family controlled by spores who speak with one voice.

Symbolism.

We also learn that the servants of the house are essentially brainless. Their whole consciousness has been taken over by the gloom.

Yeah.

Which is why they've never greeted Noemi or anything like that. They have nothing of their personality left.

Yeah. Throughout the. The book, they give basically yes or no answers to everything. And she finds it very off putting because her family is fairly wealthy and they also have servants. But, like, they're people with personalities that she knows, like, about them and their families. And these people, unfortunately, are not because they are one with the spore.

They are gloom.

They are gloom. So Virgil fucks off. And when Francis and Noemi are alone again, he tells her that he has a plan to break her out of high place. Howard's body is going to die soon, and his plan is that in that moment, they will escape through a tunnel beneath the house. Because for a time, Howard's consciousness will be in the gloom and. And not able to kind of access what's going on? Noemi makes Francis promise that he'll also help Catalina, and he agrees. He thinks that they should be able to escape in the next few days. But until then, he tells Noemi that, like, she needs to play along with the family's wishes. And this is where we find out that Howard. Howard's planning a wedding. There's gonna be a nice little wedding for her and Francis the next night.

We also learn during the ceremony. Is it during the ceremony that Howard actually intends to take over Francis instead of Virgil? He intends to take Francis's body?

Yes, because it's after the ceremony because Virgil comes to her room instead of Francis.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. She wears this gross, ancient wedding dress.

I mean, the one from the picture, right? From the portrait.

Yeah, exactly. The one that's always there. Virgil. Like I said, she finds out because Virgil comes to her room instead of Francis, and he says that the family figured out stupid little escape plan. He tries once again to force himself on Noemi because Virgil is a monster human who needs to die. Thankfully, Noemi manages to push him over and knock him out, which I was. Oh, I was so happy that she managed to do that. She runs to get her cousin, and she finds Francis in the room with Catalina, and they begin to leave. And then they're accosted by Florence with a rifle. I didn't clock it. Is it the rifle? Is it the same rifle that Ruth used to kill everyone?

Oh, maybe I didn't clock that either.

I was just curious.

Wouldn't be surprising.

Then they're forced to go to Howard's room because Francis is going to have his consciousness taken over. And because Francis is our. Is what would typically be our heroine in this, he kind of meekly complies. He doesn't want to see Noemi and Catalina get hurt, so he goes along with what is happening. Thankfully, Catalina, champion of the people, manages to sneak a knife in. I did not expect this to happen at all.

Well, she finally gets her revenge. She's been living like this for, like, over a year. So I. This is a long time coming. She finally gets to leave, and the. The Gloom's attention is not on her anymore, I'm assuming. So she gets to sort of break out of it.

Exactly. And so she grabs this knife. Yeah, she's been building up to this attack, and she just stabs Howard repeatedly. And then, you know, goes to escape. Lawrence attempts to shoot Noemi, but Francis manages to wrestle the gun away and shoots his mother, which heartbreaking. But Also, like, you know, he had to do what he had to do.

Thematically appropriate.

Exactly. Noemi then takes the rifle, and emulating what she has seen Ruth do, she shoots Howard. Then they all start running towards the tunnel that Francis had talked about. Like, everything's. Everything's going so well. The tunnel leads to the cavern, the original cavern, the cavern where she's been dreaming of these rituals taking place.

And Virgil does his villain monologue.

Oh, God. Yeah. I kind of skimmed over. He strolls in, and he's like, I wanted this to happen all along because I hate my daddy, and I want to be the new immortal lord of this shithole.

Lord of the Gloom.

Lord of the Gloom, that's me. Noemi finds the. Behind the cavern altar, the mummified remains of Agnes, the source of the gloom. The epicenter, if you will. And during Virgil's stupid, stupid villain monologue, she chucks a lantern into Agnes's body, and obviously she's been mummified. It goes up into flames. And because the gloom is burning and. And the source is being taken out, both Virgil and Francis collapse. And Catalina still has her knife, which I love, and she stabs the heck out of Virgil. And then she. And then she helps Francis and Noemi escape. And I'm just like. Like, yes, I love this. I love that everyone participated in this escape.

Yes.

They managed to run all the way down the mountain, which I'm like, that. That's adrenaline, because I. The way that it's described on the drive is so far.

Yeah. Well, that's the whole thing. Noemi keeps saying she'll walk, and they're like, it's so far.

That's true. That's true. They keep telling her she can't. Well, then she does that.

She does.

They managed to take refuge with Dr. Camarillo. She calls her father. I. I forget what she says to him. Let me.

I just want to note that this whole thing could have been prevented if they had electricity, because then they wouldn't have these lanterns.

Yeah. It's their own fault. It's their own fault for not having. For being too cheap to get electricity.

Mm. Also, I mean, she gives them each sweaters. Catalina and Francis.

I thought that was really sweet as well. My father will help smooth things out, is what she has to say about this situation, which I love.

That's what her dad was supposed to do to begin with.

Exactly.

And.

Yeah. And then Catalina's like, what would they charge us with? Like, we end with a conversation between Noemi and Francis. She's telling him about how much he's gonna like life in the city, basically. And I love that. I love that she saved him. She rescued him from his tower and, like, she's taking him to live a new life somewhere else.

Yeah, she gets to take him to costume parties if he wants.

Oh, my gosh. And you know what?

I bet they would definitely have matching costumes.

Exactly. I was gonna say, I bet she wouldn't. She wouldn't change her mind if it was Francis going with her.

No, she's grown.

She has. And yeah, the. The ending, she's thinking about the future she thought could not be predicted and the shape of things could not be divined. To think otherwise was absurd. But they were young that morning and they could cling to hope. Hope that the world would be remade, kinder and sweeter. So she kissed him a second time for luck. When he looked at her again, his face was filled with an extraordinary gladness. And the third time she kissed him, it was for love. And I don't know. Like, I think. I think that's a really sweet ending. It's. I love that she is thinking about hope for the future after experiencing someone who is so stuck in the past, essentially. You know what I mean? Like, Howard's a lot of things, and there's a lot of symbolism here, but one of the main things is, like, he's essentially a vampire. A vampire who has been, like, trying to keep things a certain way for 300 years.

Not having electricity. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, for sure.

And so I love that she is now. Like, now we can move towards the future. And I think that's great.

And to be fair, she was always looking to the future. The whole reason she did this is to go to university so that she can make her own way. So I like that she gets to have that future and then also have Francis come with her. Like, it's not. She hasn't changed her plans just because Frances is here now 100%.

And I think that that's important to highlight because so often in books with, like a romance in them, that seems to be the conclusion is like. And then she realized what she needed all along was a man. And it's like, no. But what she did realize is that maybe she is interested in love and a long term relationship if it's with someone who respects her as a person and will help her with her dreams, which I am. Obviously, Frances is going to help her with her dreams.

Yeah, for sure. And she can help him.

Exactly. Oh, my God. They could be a duo. He could Draw, like, stuff when they go on anthropology trips and everything.

That's true. Oh, my God. Basically the Jurassic park couple.

Oh, my God, yes. Except they end up together. Oh, wait, you're talking about the movie.

Wait, that's archaeology.

I mean, maybe it could be archaeology. She did express an interest in archaeology at one point in the book, which is really funny.

She does like history, though.

She does. So, overall, Beth, what, what, what do you think about this book?

I really, really like this book. I think the ending was, like, a bit saccharine. So that's why I would give it a 4 instead of a 5. Honestly, I really liked the writing. I liked the symbolism. I liked all of the descriptions. I feel like it was very pleasant to read. Like I said, the ending was good. It was just a little bit, A little bit sweet for the tone of the rest of the book. I really liked it. I just felt like it didn't match necessarily.

That's super fair. I am right up there with you. I think I lean more towards a like four and a half even with this, because I was just so happy that in the end, Francis was not a horrible freak like the rest of his family.

I mean, time will tell.

I mean, that's fair. That's fair. But like, I, I feel like a lot of the time, and maybe this was Sylvia Moreno Garcia kind of pushing back against this. This trope oftentimes Gothic horror, Gothic romance ends tragically. Like, there's usually, like, some tragic bent to the ending, and I kind of like that. Instead, she gave them their happy ending.

Yeah, for sure.

And like you said, tonally, it's not, you know, a hundred percent on point with the rest of the book, but I really enjoyed this. I, I, the high score might be a result of reading it after our last three books that we've read.

A contextual rating.

A contextual rating. But I do think that this is a genuinely good book and I would recommend it to anyone to read.

Yeah, for sure. Despite all of the trigger warnings, I do think it is worth reading. For sure.

I agree. All right, well, thanks for listening. If you want more from us. Oh, no, you're right. I skipped the wheel. Oh, my God. It's because it's your turn. I don't care as much. I'm kidding. I'm joking. I'm joking.

All right, it's time to spin the wheel. All right.

Ooh, a new one.

A new one. Seasonal, thematic.

So as a reminder, seasonal or thematic can cover exactly what it says on the tin. It might be about Christmas or It might be about the beach or a haunted house.

Okay, a few to choose from. Yeah, I think. I think I'm going to choose the Hacienda.

So that is the Hacienda by Isabel.

I'm also making it difficult for myself because there are going to be Spanish words that I'll have to read.

Yeah. Listeners. Listeners may have noticed that aside from Dr. Camarillo, I avoided saying most people's last names in this book because despite being Mexican American, I didn't grow up speaking Spanish. And Spanish words are hard sometimes. Y'all. I don't think I've read anything by Isabella Kanye. So I am excited to see what's going on. The back of the book sounds fantastic already, so I'm excited.

It's really good. I think you'll enjoy it. I want to keep our streak going. Someday I will read a book I haven't read.

But today is not that day.

Today is not that day.

All right, sounds good. So thanks for listening. If you want more from us, our social media is in the show notes, as well as a link to our discord where you can join in on the conversation and suggest some books for us.

Get out there and commit some David behavior.

Bye.

Bye. I beg you, don't embarrass me. Mother Book.

Oh, my God.

Egg.