Okay, so it hasn't been like two weeks. It's the same day and we never took a break.

Nobody ever got sick bad enough to where they couldn't. Everything is fine.

Of course not.

But we remember everything from the book that we read.

Yeah, it's been a zero amount of time since I read this book. That being said, so we have met Saul. We learned that. Oh my God. So we learned that Saul has. Is one of the names where he is tethered to a demon is what Rose learns. And we learn that he is friendly and amazing and we love him. We love him a lot.

And he used to be a counselor, I think, right when she was there.

That's right.

He was in the commercial, the first commercial she saw.

Oh, that's right.

Did he have. I don't remember actually, Caius. Did he have all the tattoos in the commercial or was that maybe a post? Him leaving the church thing?

I think it was post.

Okay. I would have thought that Rose at that time would have noted that. You know what I mean?

Yes, she would have noted it. And as far as I can remember.

And also in her dream. Oh yeah, her drug trip.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we haven't.

We haven't talked about the drug trip yet.

Yeah, but it didn't. No, no, but it wasn't described then. So I figure.

Yeah, but he's got tattoos, he's got piercings, he looks like a badass. And Rose is intimidated. But he also has books and he has cars and he works on them.

I know when he was described for some reason, like before she really got into. Into describing like his physicality, I was like, oh, this is a person that's working on cars. This has got to be like a 70 year old white man. So I was happy to be surprised by that.

Honestly though, if it was the same Saul, other than being like a 70 year old white man, I think I also would have loved him. I love old guys that work on cars.

They're very cute, 100% incredible.

But he also has a book that he pilfered. He found. He has?

Yeah, from the church, from what he says. Like he also started deep diving once he started remembering things about the camp and he got this book. I also. Just a real quick note. I kept forgetting that Rose's last name was Darling because I kept forgetting the Peter Pan tie ins basically. But when he says Rose Darling when he sees her, I was like, oh, he's like Southern. Like that's like a Darling. You know what I mean?

I thought it was a. I Thought it was a gay ism. And I feel like it is sort of still. It's an overlap of, like, letting him do a gay ism but also having it be her name.

That's fair.

That's very fair.

Yeah.

Then that's more of a Darling, Rose darling.

I just say it like that.

So, yeah. So with this book, Rose gets to learn a lot, and it's. I think I called it the deus ex machina of lore. She gets to learn about demons and things like that, and we get a bit of a training montage.

And it's really interesting, too, because she is already, like. Even as they're just kind of establishing the relationship, she's kind of dismissive of it to an extent of, like, the whole demon thing, because she is starting to lean towards, like, zero religion or faith because of her experience. Whereas Saul still has that connection to his faith, and he's like, if demons are real, why wouldn't God be real? And meanwhile, she's like, maybe they're just from an alternate dimension. And I'm just like, you know what?

That's fair.

But also, I get where both of you are coming from.

Yeah. Rose is like aliens, Ancient aliens. Yeah, I get both perspectives. I think her relationship to faith.

That.

Story and that arc is really interesting. Yeah. The zero, all or nothing thinking is very typical because she is extremely young, and I feel like that's a symptom of that youth and also the trauma that she's experienced. It makes sense that she would.

And part of that reframing of faith is either when you're deconstructing, it is easier, especially when you're younger, to just be like, well, it's all. All bad. And if somebody decides to reintegrate, like, a healthier relationship with faith, it does have to be like, bottom up after that's been done.

Yeah. You're rebuilding it on your own terms.

Absolutely. And I do have a quote here, too, when. When Saul first presents the book to her. It's on page number 145 in my eBook. And it starts. Saul drops the weighty book on the table before me, the loud rattling making me jerk. Spiritual study, he reveals, returning to his seat. Prayer. I stare at my host awkwardly. Wait, after all this, you still believe in prayer? You believe in God? You don't? Saul counters with a laugh. There's a demon attached to you, darling. Are you really saying the devil is out there doing his wicked work, but now God is a bridge too far? I open my mouth to respond, but the words catch in My throat. He's got a fair point. I've been so wrapped up in my disillusionment with the church itself that I didn't even see what was sitting right in front of me. The mountains of evidence that something else is out there. Of course, it's difficult to tell what that something is, but throwing out the whole cosmic realm might not be the most logical course of action. And I've witnessed this with some friends who have had bad experiences with church in the past. And it's really interesting because there does seem to be one of two ways that especially queer people tend to go after, like, separating from a very strict faith. Like this is they'll either find a different denomination or a different church that actually, like, the message suits them and they. They still believe in a God and. And in a lot of the teachings, or they're just like, no, none of it. I am done with religion, period. And it's. It's just a really interesting dichotomy that I see often.

Yeah, it makes complete sense as well. Like you were saying, Caius, like, especially if it's integrated into your identity, you'd want to not throw out your entire identity. You'd want to find something that still speaks to you and who you are, but do it on your own terms rather than through the people that maybe lied to you or didn't accept you. The new community, and I mean, you.

See it all the time, even outside of this context. Especially for younger queer people who, like, realize they're queer. Like, they'll go and they'll change their friend group, change their hair, you know, change all of their outfits just to. To try to separate themselves from the expectations that they had before. And obviously this is doubly so when your whole group and your whole life has been centered around a particular religious group. Especially like in Rose's case, everything's been around the Kingdom of the Pine. The whole town, most of the town follows their teachings. She only gets separation, like a year before she has to go right the fuck back and goes to Camp Damascus.

So the training montage is about learning the truth, essentially trying to figure out a way to defeat the church, defeat the. The demons, trying to learn as much as they can. At least Rose is learning as much as she can in order to accomplish that goal. Because she can't sit by and do nothing.

Yeah, and she knows because she defeated Willow's. She doesn't know. Well, no, I think Saul does actually reveal her name at this point. Right. He reveals that Willow was her girlfriend, but she Knows that she has killed Willow's demon. So they start kind of plotting out how to do it for everyone, basically, which is very fun.

Yeah, Untether. Yeah, for everyone. So, yeah, we get sort of a learning teaching, a brain montage. A brain muscle montage.

The gang goes down to the library. The Scooby gang goes to the library, which is always what happens. And Saul starts building some dope stuff.

Yeah. So his. His montage is more muscle based, for sure.

Engineering thrain is a muscle. Oh, my God.

So, yeah, he's. He's building a demon trap. And when it's finally time, Saul is still going to church. So he goes to church, right. The sort of the day before they're going to do it, or the morning of, I think, actually. And he invites Rose to go with him. And she doesn't want to at first, but she ends up going. And she doesn't go inside, though I.

Will say that, like, right before this scene is my favorite line where Rose just goes, let's do something about it. I proclaim Frick Camp Damascus. It's the only time I think she curses. It makes me very happy.

Yeah, it's very good for her moment. I love it. It's so cute.

I love it. I liked it in the audiobook, too. It was really. I liked the delivery of Mara Wilson.

And then she does end up deciding to go with Saul because she misses, like, she tells him. Sorry, here's the quote. It's. There are things I miss about my old life, like community and family and just going to church on a day like today. You've shown me how someone could find love in that book on their own terms. But too many people around here have used it for hate. And so she. She wants to go with him. And she does miss a lot of the aspects of it. But she's just. She's still having such a hard time because it is so early, too, in her discovery of everything that's going on for her to put past, like, the hurt that has come from it.

Well, I can relate as well to needing that ritual, you know, like, she had a lot of rituals with her father. And the dissolution of that relationship doesn't eliminate the need for those rituals. So replacing them with something that belongs to you makes a lot of sense as well.

Yeah.

So finding, I guess, replicating or doing something new with Saul is kind of nice. I like it.

Yeah. I like that he sits out in the car with her too.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was just gonna say sitting in the parking lot instead of going in which is. I don't know. I think that's a nice friendship moment.

It's a really good snippet of. Or like a really good show of solidarity between the two of them.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

And I do like what he says, too. Kind of in response to her talking about how people have used, you know, the Bible for hate and. And the teachings of the church for hate. On page 159, Saul just nods, smiling to himself. I'm just not okay with letting them define God's love. This is my little way of doing something about it. And I feel like that kind of starts her towards, you know, not. She doesn't ever really lean back into wanting to be part of, like, a faith again, but she understands more like, where he's coming from, I think, after he talks about that. Because she can. She can relate to how it's his. It's like an act of defiance. The same as, like, her not knowing is an act of defiance. It's just a different act.

Yeah, exactly. So after that, we get the demon elimination scene where Will goes in. It's so elaborate.

It's ridiculous.

A flamethrower and chains in, like, a cage. It's so elaborate. I do love it, though. It. It would be great in a movie, to be honest. It would probably be my favorite scene in. If it was in a movie.

I agree. You. Did you call her Willow by chance?

Did I call her Willow?

I think you might have, but I knew who you meant. I knew you meant Rose.

Rose.

That whole contraption, how it's described, reminds me of, like, when you go to a. Oh, this is. This is a. This is a. Maybe a deep pole. It's in Undertale where you get to the bridge and it's like this death trap that papyrus is set up and, like, nothing. Just like, you know.

Yeah.

Just tickles. Tickles me so much.

Yeah.

It's so funny because Rose refuses to use the flamethrower because it's. It's like he. It is the most homemade flamethrower in the world. And it is. I don't blame her for not wanting to strap it to her back.

Yeah. So, yeah, they. She thinks about to bait pachid to the barn. She thinks about Willow. She's, like, very sweet. And then she doesn't stop herself. She, like, continues the thought and the memory and pachid comes and electronic devices fritz out and they lose contact at one point, but it goes off and she gets roasted. Absolutely roasted in the cage. She's not coming out of her cage. Despite all her rage she's not feeling just fine. Wait, we did two different.

We did do two different songs.

Yeah. She gets roasted and they. The other thing that happens is that the electronics go wonky, but also the security cameras. The TVs for the security cameras show presumably, hell. It was a similar thing to the TVs in the party. They show torture and people being tortured.

I guess, suffering souls. A lot of this aspect of it. And then also later on, the way that the demons fight and. And kill people. This is the part that really, really made me think of Hellraiser. Especially, like, they're. Because in Hellraiser, they're not necessarily actually from hell, but their dimension, whatever it is, is a hellish dimension where everyone is, like, tortured and stuff. Because, like, their whole thing is, like, extremes. So, like, extreme pleasure and extreme pain and that at a point, they're both one in the same or whatever. And so I got a lot of those vibes, and I'm. I probably. I feel like Chuck Tingle probably got some inspiration from Hellraiser for it, especially because the author. Clive Barker, the author of Hellraiser, is very gay. So.

Okay, it makes sense. I've. I've never seen Hellraiser. Is that the one with the, like, spikes in the.

Yeah. Pinhead.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

I'd say we should watch it, but, I mean. And I did recommend it, I believe, at the beginning of this episode. I. I like it. I think it's a fun camp movie, but, like, it might be a little too much for some people, depending on how you feel about torture porn. I mean, it's not. It. It's. It came out in the. In the 70s or 80s. It's not as bad as, like, modern stuff.

It's just that, like, torture porn. Yeah.

As modern.

I don't know. I watched the Pain Olympics when I was in middle school, so I think I'm.

Yeah, I think you'll survive.

I think I'll be fine.

Which is good because it is on our. My list of gay movies to show.

Oh, awesome.

Yeah.

So, yeah. So we see Into Hell, I guess, through the TVs, and this seems to be a side effect of the demon's presence.

Yeah, of her, like, crossing over.

Yeah.

Yeah. She's flown. Made Saul's super hyped that it worked.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I would be, too.

I thought Saul died for a second.

Oh. Because he stops, like, the contact just, like, cuts out.

He vanishes. And then she calls out to him and he doesn't respond, but then he shows up Right.

Because they. They were on, like. They were on little, like, headsets together. And so, like, his headset died, and.

Then he was in, like, some kind of crow's nest situation.

So I was picturing it like a factory, and then he was in the factory office.

That's interesting. For some reason, my brain was like. And now they're out of the fucking. Out of the barn. Raises up this tall crow's nest that he's in.

Amazing. Yeah. I was picturing, like, a mezzanine, like, the loft in a barn being used as, like. Like you said, like an office or something.

That probably is what was intended.

Oh, man, those were so fun. Did you ever jump? No. Anyway, did I ever jump where? Just barn stuff jumping off of the upper level of a barn into some hay.

No.

No. Hay is sharp and disgusting feeling like. I would never jump in hay.

Yeah, it is. It's bad.

Yes.

And also, when I was in school, somebody died from that.

Oh, my God.

After that summer.

Hay is not soft. People think that hay is, like, it's gonna break your fall, and it's not.

I mean.

I mean, it kind of did.

It fluffed a bit out. Yes. But it's still not soft. It's not a soft material. I have very few scars from my childhood, but one of them is my knee. I went on a hayride and a piece of hay got lodged in my knee. And I still have a scar from that. And I didn't notice it when it happened until someone was like, oh, my God, Marie, your leg is bleeding. And I look, it was just, like, covered. My leg was just covered in blood. It went in my shoe. Beth, I got blood in my shoe.

Oh, my God. You got blood in your shoe. You're Eric.

I'm Eric. Sorry.

Anyway.

No, it's okay.

You.

You went off topic, and now I'm trying to figure out how to do just girly things but make it just barn things.

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Amazing. So we. After that, we do also get Saul's demon death, which I was disappointed that we didn't get, like, more detail on. But I understand that it's, like, a private thing for him, I guess, like, he just kind of did it like a badass. He was just, like, gay thoughts and then a flamethrower and without involving Rose at all. Which, like, I get. I guess makes sense. It's a private moment.

Yeah. And I. You know, as I've been thinking about this book for not. Not two weeks while we waited to record the second part of this episode, but I. I think I agree more with the. I wish that there was more about Saul and about Willow, like, in this part of the book. I don't necessarily think that it, like, detracts from the book for me, but it does make me wish that there was, like, more to this. Like, there was more to this universe. And I could their stories a little bit. That'd be great, actually. Hey, Chuck Tingle. You should release, like, the Book of Saul.

Give us the Saul cut.

Yeah, give us the Saul cut. But, yeah, I. I do love, though, like, I. I love that he decides to 1v1 his demon, and I do love that he is. Because he is loudly blasting metal 99.9% of the time.

Oh, yeah.

I'm sorry. He does. He does correct Rose at one point, but I love that for this. For summoning his demon and defeating it. He is playing, like, a pop ballad. It's so good.

It's like a boy band pop.

Yeah. What song did you picture? Don't say at the same time. If you do, I'm gonna move them on the timeline. But what song did you picture? I'll say mine. I pictured everybody by Backstreet Boys.

I pictured. You don't know. You're beautiful by One Direction, but sung by the boys in Turning Red.

Amazing.

I. Okay, so I was thinking what was running through my head was, don't want you back by the Backstreet Boys.

Fuck yeah.

Okay. Okay. A deep cut. That's great. I love it. Yours makes more sense for, like, the context of, like, what's happening. But I could just pictured maybe that this song was just special for, like, him and his.

And the mystery voice.

Absolutely.

Never find out about. Which makes me.

I know. See, this is why we need a book of salt. We need. We need more. I want it. I want to see his reunion with his boyfriend. I want him to find his boyfriend.

Make your characters more verbose. Chuck Tingle.

Come on.

Chuck them expository.

Give me expository dialogue. Make them info dump. Just all of their back. 50 pages.

50 pages per character. That's all we're asking for.

Less of the ruins, more of this book.

Yeah, let's just take out of the ruins and add to Camp Damascus. I will say, though, like, I do like. Well, I would love more information about salt. I do think it would kill the pace if for sure. And he was like, now let me tell you my tragic story.

Absolutely. That's why I'm like, attack. Tack it onto a new book, baby.

But no, I. I think that your song makes a lot of sense, Beth, because of the music video. That is the gayest music video in the world.

I love it.

It's so good.

And my. I share a birthday with Brian.

Well, I had the NSYNC dolls. And at this point, now that her demon is dead.

Well, now that Willow's demon is dead and Rose's demon is dead, they're like, we should meet up with Willow. So there's a lot of prep. A lot of prep. A lot of note cards, writing down topics. And she gets Saul's help. And that's another nice little bonding moment where they get to sort of talk about how it's gonna go. And this is something I can also relate to.

It's incredibly cute. It is so cute.

It's really cute. And she's, like, sitting out by the tree, writing down her little note cards, figuring out what she's gonna say. And they do finally meet. And they meet at the place where they met originally in a bookstore. And it is very cute. I feel like it is also very, like, compressed. We're sort of getting I It looking at, like, the runtime we're getting towards the end. So I feel like this was. Could have been. If this was a romance book, this could have been a bigger moment. I felt like it was adequately prepared.

But, yeah, and there's little things that indicate that there's so much more world that we really didn't get to see. But at the top of the chapter, or in the second section of this chapter, where she meets Willow again, Roses enters the bookstore, and there's an older man behind the counter. And he looks really confused at the fact that Rose doesn't recognize him. I'm like, oh, I want to know more about the guy that works the counter and knows Rose. Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's about. On page 180 is what you're. You're looking at. And yeah, I like those little touches, too, where it's like, there is so much more depth in this world that is there, and we get little peeks of it. And I do appreciate that. Even if it doesn't get maybe as deep into some of those that I would prefer that it still touches on them and you still know that they're there, even if we don't get to really deep dive.

Yeah, for sure.

I will say I hate Willow's last name.

Krogle.

It's fucking atrocious. Sorry to all the Krogles out there.

Sorry to any Krogles out there. Jesus Christ.

And is hard to read.

I was kind of Like, I don't know. I guess uncomfortable, maybe, because maybe this is, like, autism. But I didn't. I felt like there could have been an explicit conversation about having Willow move in. It just felt very, like, weird to me that, like, they're just like, yeah, now you're coming to this barn. And it's like, I. That felt so, like, rushed and abrupt and it. I don't know, maybe just to me that there just wasn't a conversation about it. And I just felt like maybe that's just my anxiety as well, where I'd be like, so Rose just, like, met this guy, and then they're meeting her ex girlfriend, and then she's just living there now, and then she's gonna move her girlfriend in also.

Yeah, I. I totally get that. However, with the. I mean, that's just what lesbians do.

You're not wrong.

Maybe it's like the imposition to me is the weird thing. Right? Like, it's like. It just feels like such an imposition to, like, move somebody into something.

Yeah, but that's. Young lesbians.

I don't know. I feel like. No, and I also feel like that's. That's like. That is, like, intense. Like, these sorts of intense, like, queer friendships that form. Like, I don't think that it's an imposition on Saul, because I. I think he'd probably be upset if they, like, went somewhere else maybe, you know, if they didn't ask him first. You know what I mean? Instead of.

I'm like, I'm certain that's the case. I think it's just my anxious brain where I'm just, like, the conversation didn't happen. It's not in writing. They just, like, assumed that they could do it. I think I'm just like, maybe that's not their brand.

He sort of hand waves it pretty fast as well. I think it is implied that there was something, but because it's like, oh, it was an easy decision. He doesn't say, it's an easy decision that we talked about, the three of us. Then it leaves that little uncertainty where you're like.

I think it's more of a. Like, a wipe.

Absolutely.

To, like, the next part of the scene rather than them not having the conversation at all.

It truly did trigger my, like, my anxiety, though.

But, Beth, you're, like the type of guest who would feel bad about, like, getting a snack out of a fridge at, like, someone's house that you're visiting after they told you, by the way, there's snacks in the fridge. And you can help yourself to one if you want.

Yes. I'd be like, is it okay. Is it okay if I put my coat here? Is it okay if I get water? I'll wash the glass afterwards. You'll never know I was here.

However, kind of on that point, though, I think it's really cute, too, and sweet how Rose is, like, already helping turn Saul's house into more of a home, because it's very clear that Saul doesn't really care that much about the house itself. He's obviously. He's pretty into his cars, and that's where he puts a lot of his care. But she's, like, making little repairs around the house and, like, cleaning the house up and stuff for him to make it more livable, which I. I just thought that was very sweet of her.

I liked that detail as well, because it does speaks to their relationship without the words. Like, without explicitly saying it. I'm not saying that they should have had the conversation, just as an FYI, because I feel like that's not good storytelling.

And then we pause the action for everyone to sit down and talk about how boundaries and about personal space and how boundaries are going to be outlayed. Who gets what shelf in the fridge.

I would say, like, of the conversations that are here, you know, Rose and Will have a couple. The second one that they have, like, in her apart in Willow's apartment made me uncomfortable. I thought the combo was weird. You know what I'm talking about, where it's at?

Are you talking about when she's like.

Pagan stuff cool or the pagan stuff? I understand it's a joke, and, like, whatever. It just makes me feel odd.

Mm. Because it's this, like, judgment that's not really a judgment, like, it's a joke, but it, like, feels like a past.

And it's like, see, that's.

That's not what I got out of that conversation at all. That's so interesting. See, I. To me, this. This. Honestly, just read, like, it just made sense to me. Like, Rose doesn't have all her memories. She doesn't remember being here before and seeing Willow's collection, her pagan stuff. And I. I don't know. I thought it was kind of cute how she was like, oh, pagan. Pagan stuff cool. Like, she's trying to be super chill about it, even though it does wig her out a little. And I. I don't know. I like that Willow instantly kind of clocked that as well, because I feel like this is a conversation that maybe they had before.

Yeah.

That she Is realizing maybe, like, Rose remembers some stuff, obviously, but she does not remember everything. And I. I don't know. I kind of like the awkwardness that it led to their relationship. Because if you were like, I know that I really love this person, but I remember, like, five things about them. Like, I feel like that would be incredibly awkward all the time.

Well, and the fact that Willow knew about her note cards, she was like, oh, did you bring note cards? Like, that immediately was, like, an indicator of Willow remembering a lot more than Rose did, which, again, is kind of awkward that, you know, if I don't remember a lot about you, I just know, like you said, I know my feelings about you.

Yeah.

But I don't remember anything else that's inherently very awkward. But having. It's, like, nice that Willow was pointing out those things that she remembers about Rose to, like, be like, yeah, I know you. Like, this is good. Well, and it's okay that you don't.

Know me to return to the bookstore thing, because, like. And so, obviously, Willow has some trauma related to everything that's happened with Camp Damascus, because she got sent there as well. Obviously, she had a demon attached to her. But when she kind of quizzes Rose about, do you know why I chose this bookstore? Do you remember why I chose this? And in the moment of reading it, it felt a little mean to me for her to kind of hinge whether or not she's going to kind of rekindle what she had with Rose based purely on that. But I also understand, coming from it, where it's like, you started this relationship. You guys were getting really close, and then this horrible thing happened where you're both sent away to this camp, you had literal demons attached to you, and now this person's trying to make their way back in your life. And even though they're not the source of the trauma, they're associated with that trauma now. So I kind of understood her wanting to be like, no, I need to know, like, for real, that, you know who I am and what this place means to us before I'm willing to go any further. And then I love the common lesbian trope of, like, as soon as Rose is like, oh, this is where we first met. It's all right. Let's get a U Haul. We're moving in together. Like, I don't know. Like, I liked it a lot. But I get what you mean, though, Cosmo. It was awkward, and it did feel a little judgmental coming from Rose, but I keep trying to remember that, like, this is her once Again, having to go through the process of kind of disentangling herself from those prejudices that she has. For sure.

I think I understand more why I don't like it, because the first combo they have in the bookstore is so sweet. And a lot of context is given for what Rose is thinking and for. Even for, like, Willow's facial expressions.

But.

But it shows that there's, like, some intimacy, but they're still getting to know each other. And then you get to this scene in the apartment, and we're not given a lot in this. In this beginning part of the conversation. The second part of it, it gets back into it, but it's like, the only, like, descriptors that are given are. Oh, I announce, framing the question is an awkward statement. You know, she's looking around. She's like, I'm offering this up, mustering the most casual and convincing nod I can. You know, there's a lot less substance given to. And reasoning given behind each thought and each statement. So it. It feels like off to me in a way where the rest of the conversations don't.

I think Chuck Tingle is a very good writer, and it felt like, to me, he was trying to not hold back, but make it not a romance, necessarily, because I think he. I almost wanted it to be a romance at a certain point.

Yeah. I think it, like, was struggling with, like, whether it wanted to be one or not or how much space it wanted to give to the romance. And my thing is, like, it doesn't have to be a romance book, but these two characters are romantically involved. Like, sexuality is a huge theme throughout this entire novel. Like, a part of that is. Is love is romantic love is. Is sexual attraction. Romantic attraction. I think there was maybe a little trepidation about, like, leaning into that, and I think it would have maybe benefited.

It's interesting.

A little more, you know, push well.

And I kind of feel like.

And it wouldn't have taken a lot, I don't think.

I kind of feel like it made sense to me, though, because there is a clear, like, kind of wedge between them that is still on. Like. Yeah, there is still a lot that Rose has accepted on a, like, a logical level that I still feel like she hasn't accepted on a emotional level. And I don't think that she really accepts it until the very end of the book. And right after, she has this moment where I feel like she kind of realizes emotionally as well as logically that, like, this isn't her fault. That it's. It's. There's nothing wrong with her that she kisses Willow for the first time. And I do think that it's Willow being respectful of, like, the clear discomfort that Rose still has in a lot of regards. So, like, what's. Once again, like I said, it's to Rose, it's like she is at the very start of her gay journey all over again. Like she lost everything in her memory wipe.

I agree. I think for me, it's not that I want them to, like, get intimate faster. I actually really like that it ended with the kiss. I wanted the awkwardness to be even more explained. I think that's all I want is, like, a little more substance to it. And I don't think it would have broken up the pacing with Shad. Like, just continue that pattern of adding more description to scenes. I. I get it. But I.

And I will say, having read Barrier Gaze since.

Oh, you already finished.

Oh, yeah. In the.

In the five seconds we took as a break and not the two weeks.

And the little, brief, tiny, little break that we took.

The. The bathroom break.

Yeah, the bathroom break. He is capable of doing horror while maintaining the relationships and the. That connection and describing the connection and the community. I just feel like it's stronger and Barrier Gaze. But maybe it's because those relationships exist from the beginning of the book.

And I think it comes from Barrier Gaze being his second novel of the kind. Yeah, he's getting more practice. This is a very well done, especially for, like, you know, he'd been doing erotica. But this is his first, like, fully published, like, fiction, horror novel. It's really, really good for a first leap into a genre that's. It's fucking astounding. So this is just me nitpicking mostly of like, oh, I wish, but I still really liked it. I still recommend it, yada, yada.

Very fair.

Minor correction. This was preceded by Straight was straight to novella. Straight is a novella. But I'm saying, like, this. This is not his first dive into non erotica. This is the second dive into straight.

Also horror.

Yes.

Okay. So then it's the first time launching into long form like a novelization in this genre, which is. It is a very different process. But yeah. And now I'm curious to read straight and see how that holds up to this and then how Barrier Gate pulls up to the. One second. Let's just take a quick bathroom break. And another.

Another real quick.

I go read those really quick.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you don't have an actuary read.

No, but those are fun.

This is a fun Thing to so to slip back into the book and also to touch on this section that we were just talking about. This is one of my favorite parts, though, of this is as she's looking around and seeing all this pagan stuff, one of the things that she says is this exposed wall is where a frame poster is hung featuring an eerie yellow symbol that I've never seen before. And when she asks. When she asks Willow, what about that symbol? After Willow explains, like, no, I just like fun stuff. Like, I don't believe in witchcraft. Willow says, that's Wu Tang Clan. And it's just so delightful. I love it so much.

My brain was like, oh, is he gonna put some, like, king and yellow stuff in here? Is it gonna be the yellow sign?

Fun?

No, it's just Wu Tang Clan. It makes me. It makes. It reminds me so strongly of when I was younger. Younger. I say this as if it didn't happen in 10th grade. When I was in 10th grade, I. So I knew it. 666 meant. I knew that was the devil number, but I had no idea what 420 meant. So I went to my friends in Skype chat and I was like, hey, guys, so you know how 666 is Satan? And they were like, yes. I was like, does that mean that 420. A number that I had seen them use several times. Does that mean that that's a Jesus number?

Oh, blood.

And it just reminded me very strongly of Willow's. Rose's reaction to Willow's accoutrement?

Yeah.

So Rose makes it clear that she wants to try to help the rest of the people who have been affected by Camp Damascus, specifically by going to Camp Damascus. And Willow is against it. Valid. She's like, you don't have any obligation to this, basically.

I know I don't have to help those kids. I've got no obligation. And it would be a hell of a lot easier to just skip town with you. The fact that I don't have to do any of this is exactly why I'm going back to that camp. And it's on page 185. I just thought it was sweet, and I thought it was very real. You know, I do work or I try to do work for, like, within my communities, and I don't have to. Nobody has to do it. And I try to impress this on a lot of younger queer folks who can sometimes get mad that not everyone is, like, fighting the fight. You know, a huge portion of fighting the fight is just being alive, choosing to do extra work. So choosing to start a group or write a zine or raise money or what, have protest, whatever, it's very fulfilling. But it's also. It is a choice. It's not necessary in terms of you are not expected to do it if you're gay, if you're trans. You should never feel pressured to have to do it. And you won't actually produce good, effective activism if you feel pressured to do it. But if you're doing it because you love your community and because you want to, instead of pull up the ladder, you want to help build more of it and keep lowering more down, then it's. It's so rewarding. Um, and I. And I highly recommend it. I. I think it's so valuable. And it feels. It feels. Again, I'm repeating myself, but it feels so, so rewarding and so good, even in the hard times when people are being fucking dipshits.

Yeah, for sure. No, for sure. For sure. And, yeah, I really appreciate that we get the two different perspectives. And I really appreciate, too, that Willow, after hearing how strongly Rose feels about it, like, Willow's just like, all right, let's do it. Like, let's go do this, then. And I think it's something that. It's very clear that Rose's personality, that aspect of it, that drive that Rose has to get justice and help those kids, I feel like that's something that Willow probably admired about her before everything happened and still admires about her.

Yeah, it's like one of those things you fall in love with about a person and it changes you in time.

So then we have a drug trip.

It's so fun. It's so fun. And drugs are not like this. For me.

It sort of felt. I don't want to say it felt cheap, but it kind of felt out of left field to me a bit.

Well, I actually push up glasses on nose, even though I'm not wearing glasses. The two of you are wearing glasses, and I'm not. I feel like I should have my glasses on. Anyway, this is a classical podcast, specifically the reason. So they're like, oh, we need more information about Camp Damascus. But there's no way to get it. Rose remembers that she started remembering stuff because of the drug that she was on in the ambulance, and specifically in that moment when she was, like, waking up from that and realizing that she was having a memory. She notes that there have been studies that show that certain drugs can trigger memories. And so she's like, why don't I just trigger more memories? So I don't Feel like it was out of left field entirely. It's just a callback to earlier in the book.

Sure.

I. I found it very funny that Rose was like, this needs to be as objective as possible. Like a drug. Like being very purposeful in her drug trip. I mean, there are. You have guides, you know, for a reason. First of all, they shouldn't have left her alone, okay? They should be there.

Listen, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying it's out of left field because nobody in this situation is like, nobody is a hospital worker, Nobody is a nurse or anything. Like, I. That's all I'm saying. Like, I just feel like it's not.

These are. These are. Three young adults. Did that, do you think? Have you never met again?

Well, you're saying it's to be, like, scientifically minded, Like.

Oh, I didn't say that triggered a memory. Well, yeah, that's the thing is she.

Says she's scientifically minded.

I think it's very funny that she's like, well, well, I've been, you know, high before, so let me get high again on a completely different type of drug. But we're going to be so objective going into it. You know, she's like, no music. Nobody can be near me. I have to. I have to focus. Because that's not how drugs work. And by the way, hey, if you're doing it, if you're doing a shroom trip or you're like, having a lot of weed, and especially if it's your first time, listen to music, be around things that make you comfortable. Be around somebody else that makes you comfortable and safe and can watch out for you because, oh, my God, why did they just leave her?

It felt like, to me, the equivalent of being like, and you'll be fine. Like, I have amnesia, so I'm gonna knock myself on the head because that's the thing that gave me amnesia. Like, it's very like, rom com logic to me.

That's not the same thing, though, because that's the thing that gave you amnesia. It's not the thing that triggered your memory before.

But it just.

Just.

It felt like that kind of logic to me.

I will also note, I don't know about. Once again, I guess my experience is different from Yalls experience. The number of people I know who have gone on drug trips in a similar manner to this is pretty damn high. I just think that you guys are describing way too much, like, expectation for three young adults who have no experience with drugs.

I'm criticizing why Are you including me in this?

I. I didn't criticize. I said that the way they did.

That's exactly the way they did. It is stupid because they don't know that you need a trip sitter. They're dumb children.

I'm providing a PSA for. For your listeners. I'm trying to help your listeners.

I have a problem. I don't have.

Not be.

I don't. I have a problem with Chuck Tingle. But more of my problem is with these young adults thinking like, I'm gonna do a serious mission and I'm gonna do drugs about it. That's my problem.

I'm just like. I'm reading a book about literal demons being attached to people via scientific rituals. Doing a drug trip to remember things doesn't seem that far fetched.

I would have liked to see Saul smoking weed before this, though. Just to clarify that he knows how to get drugs. I mean, I know young adults. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. I don't know would have been sick. But I want to know who sourced the shrooms, is what I'm saying. Was it Willow or was it Saul?

More or more angel masks? More angel masks. Breaking into a hospital. I love that both of you.

Or. Sorry, I love guys that you're like. I love that you're like. Shrooms.

It's shrooms. It's shrooms, but it's not.

I love that you say the shrooms. These things. He specifically never tells what drug it is that they're doing. It's shrooms.

It's.

They're putting it in tea and it.

Tastes like a few things that you can put in tea. That tastes like dirt. I'm just saying dirt.

Dirt is one.

Dirt is one. Maybe it's magic dirt.

It's just like the religion. It's a made up. It's a made up drug.

I'm rereading it now to find out.

Just like it's a made up religion.

Yeah, it's a. It's an amalgamation. It's an amalgamation of multiple types of psychedelic drugs is what it is. Because mushrooms aren't going to make you trip like this.

They do drugs about it. And she recovers a memory. Well, half memory, half lucid dreaming from camp. So she remembers being at camp and she sees Saul or a version of counselor Saul from camp. And it's clear that this is more dream than memory because he's saying things that she. That are in her head. He's saying things that she is thinking more than what the memory would indicate. So it's sort of Half dream, half memory. And he tells her essentially where the cabin is, that the tethering is happening.

Yeah. I will also say.

And then follows the flies.

At a point, her shadow runs away, much like Peter Pan's shadow runs away from him.

I like that in the shadow moment, there's a line where she says, you belong to me. I shout, lost in a moment. Not anybody else, you understand? You're my shadow. And it just points back to this repeated metaphor that we don't necessarily get to fully put together until the very end of the book. The last line, actually. So it's just a nice moment there. Yeah.

And I also appreciate, too, that, like, in that. In that reclamation, because that is what put. Like, the dream starts to be more controlled. At that point, she's able to find Saul and. And have him guide her to where the cabin is. I also see it as a further extent of her, like, reclamation of what the camp took from her. Basically.

Like, this is.

This is her shadow, and it's not allowed to disobey her anymore because it belongs to her. It doesn't belong to anyone else.

Well, it's her shadow, and she's allowed to see it and feel it. And it's supposed to be a part of her. For me, the shadow was a sign of her true identity. Her being gay or being whole is connecting herself to this shadow. That's why at the beginning, it's barely present. In the end, it's so big.

Oh, it's running away at camp. I see. She's losing herself now.

She's losing her shadow at camp. Also, though, it does. Saul does have tattoos in her vision. Once again, is this memory. Is this a mix? He doesn't have piercings in her vision, so I wonder if he did have tattoos because, like, there's always those, like, the hip, young, like, youth pastor who has tattoos and stuff. You know the type.

Right.

Like, they're. Those guys exist.

Yeah. So, yeah, for sure. I think there's a point later on where when they go back to camp where they're encountering camp counselors and they're painted as, like, being evil. And this makes me think that maybe Sol. I mean, we know that Saul went to Camp Damascus because he's. He's got a tethered demon. So I'm thinking potentially he was a participant. Like, he was a camp member and then liked it so much he became a counselor. I don't necessarily know.

Oh, for sure. I think it touches on. He feels guilty.

Yeah.

For being a counselor there. And I think Rose tries To make it clear to him. I can't source the exact page, but, like, because he. He was a victim there first and he lost his memory because of what happens. And so I feel like him becoming a counselor and being brainwashed into that and then later feeling guilty, I feel like, once again, that's kind of what I'm talking about with Rose's whole emotional versus logical awareness is like, I'm sure Saul logically knows that, like, it's not my fault that I was roped into this after being brainwashed by these people. But emotionally, he still feels like very guilty for what he's done and for like kind of being like the good guy counselor that the kids trusted. And the result of their trust was them also getting brainwashed. Like, it sucks.

Yeah. It makes me hope. Or it makes me wonder about the camp counselors, you know, that we'll get to at the very end of the book and whether maybe they were just hires and not people that had gone through the camp and that's why they got targeted. I don't know. We never get any extra explanation on that. They're just kind of like, oh, they're all bad. And we'll also be taking the. To pound town by the. Oh, no, not what I meant. Not what I meant. Not what I meant.

Pound down. This isn't. This isn't what I meant.

Taking to like beating the up to hell, basically.

Being taken to hell.

Yeah.

Being dragged to hell by an extra dimensional demon. That's a title of number one.

Sorry. The voice you did made me think.

Of those, like, TikTok voice, Burger King, foot lettuce pounded in the butt by.

An extra dimensional demon in hell.

There you go.

This section also has. Well, after it and as they're preparing to go to camp, has one of my favorite quotes. And you did write it down, Caius. But it was one that I was also going to write down because it genuinely was one of my favorite quotes and I actually, like, had to. In my audiobook. Listen. I actually had to pause and write it down from rewind and write it down.

I love this quote. It's so good.

It's my favorite one. It's. Faith is just a vessel. And while it can certainly be used to justify truly horrible things, maybe I'm letting the aggressors off the hook by blaming faith itself. And that's page 200. And I just. I really like it because it does. It solidifies her journey. It shows how she's changing and how she's embracing her identity and embracing her version of faith and realizing that she's being very rigid in her thinking and realizing that she can have faith and it doesn't have to be tied to the things that have happened to her.

And that she can have faith and not have it be like that. Faith can be many things. Like, faith can be religious faith, but it can also be faith in her found family, faith in humanity as a whole. You know, faith that things will get better, faith that they can do. They can. They can make the world a safer place. You know, faith can be a lot of things, and it doesn't just have to be a strict sect of a major religion.

So they prepare to go to camp, and Saul's got his flamethrower, and they. And he's got his music blasting in his headphones. I love Saul so much. And they go to camp, and they go towards the cabin. They meet a boy who seems to be kind of, like, half asleep. And he's asking. He keeps asking if it's time for archery.

Yeah.

And it seems very clear that he's kind of out of it.

I feel really bad for this boy. This poor child just wandering in the woods.

And they sort of, I guess, quiet him down. And they proceed to the basement lab. So they go towards the flies. Flies love stink. And they discover other children in tubes being imprisoned. And they're like, we're gonna come back for you.

Yeah, it's like, whatever. Soundproof glass on everything, too.

Yeah.

To rewind just a tiny, tiny bit. Because we didn't really touch on this. I realized when. When we first brought up Willow. When she first sees Willow in the park, she has a camera. And then later on, she kind of talks to her about that. And Willow basically records and takes pictures of everything because of her experience with losing her memory. And I just felt like that was a really interesting and kind of sad, but, like, I. Like it's a sad characterization, because that makes sense if you've experienced a thing where people have made you forget who you are and who you love. Like, I would also strap a GoPro to my head and record everything at all times. Like, I get it.

That's one detail that also just made me more frustrated that we didn't get more of Sol and Willow. Not that I wanted the book to be much longer, but honestly, it's just one more detail that clearly Chuck Tingle thought of that I'm telling you.

Book of Saul, Book of Willow. Also, one more thing. For no particular reason, this is definitely not a loaded shotgun over the mantle or anything, but as they're driving to Camp Damascus, Rose is really focused on memorizing the prayer of release from that book of Latin.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For no reason for. It's. Don't worry about it.

And I. I really relate to Willow like that, needing to. To record everything and have everything stored safely and concretely. Like, I've had issues with memory loss, but also, just like with Disconnect from Family, you feel like you lose a lot when you're disconnected to your family. You lose your. The places you grew up in, you. You might lose a lot of your things, like childhood pictures, videos. A lot gets lost in that process, and I like seeing that represented, although it was kind of in a. More like in a very, very, very concrete way.

Yeah, for sure. These poor kids, they're, like, banging on the glass when they get down there, like, trying to get like, hey, let us out. And they're like, there's no switches or anything in this area.

Well, it's their. Their goal is to find this machine that Rose saw in her vision, to find this machine and shut it down. That's their goal so that they don't. They can't tether anybody else. So they move further into the lab and they see some more tubes and cages, plastic. I guess this part was kind of. I guess, nebulous to me. I feel like it. Maybe it was described in detail, but I didn't have a clear picture of the layout of this lab.

I was picturing the lab from Alien Resurrection, where Brad Dura, like, makes kissy faces at the aliens, and there's like, the. The pane of glass, like, in a cell between him and them. That's kind of what I was picturing.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I can read. I can read. There is a description here. Again, I don't know the page numbers because. Oh, book it goes. The room is perfectly square, with a door positioned on both the left and the right walls. The strips of blue illumination have fallen away, replaced instead by a sterile overhead fluorescence. The centerpiece of this chamber is an enormous glass tank that sits along the entirety of the back wall, each section partitioned into several internal compartments. Some of the chambers are empty, while others teem with little black flies that swirl like a dark, undulating hurricane. Others host masses of webbing, wispy cocoons in various sizes affixed to the blast.

So different life cycles of the worms. The worms, the worms, the demons.

So I think it's more like. It's just like a. Kind of.

A.

Kind of Just like it. Like it's a square room connecting two areas. And it's. The bulk of it is taken up on this back wall by these like huge cat cases.

For some reason, I did picture tubes. You were describing it as like, square, but in my head it was like.

I also did because when I think of like tank and big, I think tube.

Yeah. I think of reptile keeping. So I was thinking of like a wall to wall tank divided into like sections.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's what he was thinking of when he. When he wrote it. Yeah.

I was thinking Star wars back to tape.

That's so. That's so. That's so fair.

Filled with liquids.

Also, though, like, sorry, I know I keep hopping backwards, but that's because I keep looking at my quotes and realizing that we've passed where they are from. But when. Before they, like, head down into this lab area, Rose starts kind of having a panic attack and doing her counting to calm herself down. And it's not working. And I just. I really love. On page 2 13, Willow, it says. Willow steps up beside me and places her hand over mine. Not palm to palm, but facing the same direction. It's an unusual position, prompting me to glance down at her digits in confusion. Willow's fingers begin to move, dancing in unison to my very specific pattern. A strange wave of relief washes over me as her fingers tangle like this in utter silence. My taps are not magic, and while I often walk them across any surface I can find in moments of stress, performing these steps will not completely alter my reality. This is not a miracle cure. What does move the needle, however, is the sudden reminder of just how close Willow and I were. I have no recollection of showing these patterns to anyone. Yet the girl beside me can repeat every step in perfect unison. And I just. Once again, I just. I love that this speaks to the connection that they had. And I like the note cards like her knowing about that. I love that Rose is realizing that she has someone who truly understands her and understands the quote, unquote, like, weird things about her that she does and is there for her and supports her in it.

Yeah. And it juxtaposes so well to the scene earlier in the book with Rose's mother where her mother notices her tapping and yells at her about it 100%. It's like, oh, she's actually. Rose is being seen here and her differences are not being treated like these abnormalities that need to be excised. They're just seen as part of Rose.

Yeah.

And they're seen as things that help her.

100%. I just. I love that.

Just like being gay is not an abnormality.

Exactly.

So there's a bunch of worms and flies and stuff in the tanks. And the worms are nasty. I don't like worms.

That's so fair.

They're like big yerks.

Yeah, they're like big yerks. And the way that they're described, they're like. Skin is reminiscent of the demons. And so Saul thinks that they might be like demon larvae, which they turn that into like weird little critters.

They unlock the cages. Oh, yeah, right. Sorry. Smith is here.

No, they. Yeah, they don't unlock the cages.

The doctors. The doctor arrives. He's here now and he's like, you're so lucky it was me and not somebody else. Somebody else would have just shot you. It's like, oh, cool. So glad. So lucky. Cool.

What a good therapist, right?

Amazing therapist. Yeah. So we learn the purpose of the worms. The worms suck. And they. That's how the memories get sucked out of you, is from the worms. And I guess there's different worms for, like, different purposes. So they run away from Smith.

Before we continue on. Too far, I was going to say the. The reason that the worms erase memories is because they. When they implant eggs into you, it makes you forget that, basically. So they've. They've like made it so that that memory effect is more powerful or whatever over time, which is horrifying. But then they run away. The gang gets split. It's so sad.

Yeah. So the gang gets split and Rose goes into the office and Smith chases her there. The worms. The cages get unlocked, the worms are released, and the worms suck Smith. And he has all the worms at once. And it's nasty and awful and it's really sad, honestly.

Like, I don't like Smith. He's a bad person. Like, he's not a good person. But I feel so bad for him because he obviously has been injected with more of this venom or whatever it is that causes the memory issues. And he starts, like, talking to someone named Annie. And, like, we don't find out who that is. And I just. I feel really sad for him as dies from this because he's like, he's gone. It's not Dr. Smith anymore. He's just a confused man at that point. And it's kind of depressing.

Well, and right before that, you know, before he. All of this gets unleashed, he's talking to. Well, he's trying to convince Rose to get tethered again, or he's trying to convince all of them to get re. Tethered. And he says, you've seen what happens to those who spit in the face of God. Dr. Smith continues, his expression softening. And that's not something I want for any of you. He hesitates, his rage fading. Let's get you tethered again, he finally offers. And it's this same point that I think Tingle is trying to make, that the people that use religion to harm others, I mean, they know that they're causing harm. Smith knows that what he's doing is painful and that it causes damage, like it killed a girl. And it harms all of these three people that are telling him, like, this sucked. Why? But they are doing it because they think it's a form of love. They think that it's the right thing to do. They think so little of love and so little of joy that this is the action that they're. That they think is rightful or righteous.

Yeah, And I think it's. It's an important message to have, too, because it's so easy to look at situations like this and look at it in a very black and white way where you say, well, they're just doing this because they're bad people. Like, they're. They're evil bad people. And it's like, yeah, to an extent they are, but, like, also, they don't. The scarier thing to me is that they don't think that they're doing this out of a place of bad. They think they're doing it out of a place of. Of care. And to me, that is a scarier thing is people being radicalized to this extent where they don't have room for other people's definitions of what is and isn't okay. They can't even respect letting people just live their own lives because they've been so radicalized that if they don't do this, the other person's gonna suffer. They're gonna go to hell because they're sinning or whatever. And it's. It's. It's honestly sad.

Well, and then they will be implicated in having tried hard enough. And then they can jeopardize their own access to heaven.

Yeah.

Which creates this, like, awful, horrible cycle where when you tell people, like, let others live, you don't have to agree. Then they're like, but I can't. Because it's the right thing to do. And it puts people in an impossible situation, especially if you're queer and being faced with this, because there's no right way to approach somebody that's this far Gone other than to separate or. I mean, it's complicated. You know, you can have people in your life that feel this way, but they will never fully accept you. So it's, it is so impossible and so hard to know what to do when things get to this level. I think the one thing that I'd like to impress to people is like, if you, I don't think any of your listener listeners are like militant queerphobes doing it in the name of God. But if you are.

How did you get this far? How'd you get this far to our podcast? First of all, how'd you get this far into this episode?

Yeah, for sure. How'd you get this far? But like, but also just if we want to refer to like the teachings of Christ, for instance, I would recommend rereading the New Testament because loving others is not shown to be, you know, forcibly converting them it or making them do something that they don't want to do. Even if you think it's the right thing, loving somebody is compassion. Loving somebody is giving them space. It's letting them make mistakes. If you think somebody being gay is a mistake, first of all, you're wrong. Second of all, okay, okay, like I think that I don't think I'm alone in this. As a queer person. I don't really care to some extent if somebody thinks that me being gay is wrong. I think I said this in the earlier two weeks ago before the bathroom break. I think I said this. I don't care if somebody thinks it's wrong. I care if somebody infringes, thinks it's wrong and is so convinced of that that they think they have to force me to be different.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's a good portion of where this book is coming from and where, like I said, I appreciate the representation showing that these people, it's not malice. It's so easy to be like. And then we solved the problem because we stopped the one bad person in books and literature. But that's not often the case. It's often the case of like an entire group that has been convinced of something.

Well, I think that's represented in the off screen machine death where like this ultimate goal is to just destroy the machine. And that's like a very easy MacGuffin to be like, this is the thing that will stop them from doing the thing. But I think that's a very good representation of like it's not just the machine because the people are still going to be doing the things that people do. And they'll do it with or without the machine. So I think at first I was disappointed by the off screen death. It's like, oh, this is the thing that they came to do and they just did it. Like, we didn't see it happen. But I think listening to this, I'm like, yeah, actually, that does make sense. Like, it's very representative of that idea where you can destroy the machine.

The one thing. Yeah. And everything will be fine.

But. Yeah, yeah, but that's not the case.

It's actually so valuable for Sol to be part of this group and to still be religious. Because it also hammers in the point that, like, again, the religion's not the problem. Religious people are not the problem. It's. Are you using your religion in a way that is loving and kind and primarily something that is yours, or are you using it and going so hard into proselytizing and so hard into trying to save others that you lose sight of the tenets and the teachings of the religion? Like, if we're talking about Christianity, because we are, which commandment is it? That's like, love your fucking neighbor. Like, part of that love is treat them with respect and treat their decisions and their lives, regardless of what they are, different from yours with respect.

Yeah, but I will not. We aren't like in this, in this book. We are talking about Christianity, but we are talking about a very special fake version of an amalgamation of a bunch of different, like, extremist versions of Christianity.

100%.

They get out of there with the children.

Yeah.

And then we get a villain monologue from the big old pastor.

I do like that his. He gets interrupted halfway through his.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

His long thing. Because they're just like, shut the fuck up. You're so annoying.

Yeah, I did like the showdown despite my leg steamrolling through. But I did. I did actually like this. I thought it was really funny because it's very stereotypical. And then, yeah, he does get interrupted. And they've got the freaks on a leash. They've got the demons with their polos. And they're like, go, demons. And Rose is like, this is very hypocritical. And they're like the devil.

You know, basically Pastor Bend is like, oh, you destroyed our machine that easily wipes everyone's memories. I guess we have to kill you now.

Yeah, it's like a real horrifying moment where they realize, like, oh, they're gonna kill us.

When that didn't wipe your memories by smashing your brains.

Yeah. And it's not Just that they're going to kill the three of them. It's all the campers, because they don't have an option, because they can't keep their 100% streak of fixing the gaze, because they don't have the memory wipe worms anymore.

They interrupt Bend in his shitty villain monologue. I would say if there is a big bad in this, it's him. Because he does represent a lot of terrible things like capitalism and faith and religion taken to its extreme. That evangelical person. I think he is a stereotype of all of that.

Absolutely. He even has the, like, I'm the cool pastor. Like, okay, champ, you know who else had hard times? Jesus Christ, our Lord and savior. Like 100%, he's that type of pastor. But to the. The extreme version of it, there's something.

So, like, nauseating about the slogan they've got, like, we're here to help you love. Right?

Yeah.

When you know that in this moment when they're chanting it, loving right to them is death. Like, the. The only proper way to, like, to love the people around them is to kill them because they can't make them not gay. Which is actually ultimately like, the. The reason I am so, like, fuck these people and that, like, this isn't love is because if your end result for love is to kill somebody or to kill something about them that lets them lead a fulfilling life whether you like it or not, that's not love. That is hatred. Even if it's done because you think you love them, that's hatred. And it's deplorable. It's really disgusting and it's really chilling when it's chanted in this scene.

Because they're not people.

No.

They're objects to be controlled. Just like the demons.

Speaking of controlling demons, though.

Yeah. So that ritual of release that she memorizes, so she's being. She's staring down the barrel of another demon who is going to attack her. And she chants the ritual of release. And the collar breaks and she's like, oh, shit, I've done it now. Now they're going to do whatever they're going to do. And the demon looks past her and goes after one of the counselors instead. It's like, oh, no, we're escaping with our lives. But they're the. They're the baddies.

They're the bad.

Are we the baddies?

Are we the baddies?

These demons have their own morality and are judging them based on that morality. And being gay is not bad to the demons.

I will also say that the demon that was approaching Rose and then goes after a counselor. Her name, Aisheth, means woman of whoredom, which I just thought was fun.

Oh, that is very fun. But no, yeah, I love. And this is one of those things too. Like with the ritual of release with the collar breaking. On page 238, there's a quote.

It's.

The stance of these demons is swiftly adjusting. The monsters no longer carrying themselves with perfect posture. The sharp twitches that once course through their fingers at random intervals have disappeared, finally released from their rigid, locked in stature. So I.

The whole time, that other cage, they're coming out. They're doing just fine.

Doing just fine. The whole time, Rose has kind of been like, why are they wearing polos? And why are they so, like, upright and like all this stuff? And it's because the church made. It's because Pastor Ben's like, well, you're an employee of this camp. You're gonna wear your uniform and smile all the time. Like. It's crazy that they, like. Part of the enslavement of these creatures was also making them act like camp counselors. It's so funny to me, making them.

Dress like they worked at fucking target. Like, it's so crazy.

Well, it's. Yeah, it is funny, I guess, like, because it's like your own personal demon or whatever. And they are controlling the demon to attempt to control the people. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Layers.

And then Saul's music starts playing over the loudspeaker, which I love. And we get like, massacre.

Yeah. People being dragged to hell through portals.

And I like this bit where, I'm sorry, Marie, you're gonna have to insert the page number where Rose goes. I drop to my knees and close my eyes. But in these final moments, I don't ask for forgiveness. I don't accept Jesus as my savior. And I don't suddenly repent the love I feel for Willow. She's still holding my hand. And as the scales of good and evil weigh this gesture through the stern glaze of some higher power, I only squeeze tighter. If they've got a problem with this, then frick em. They may be powerful, but they're wrong.

Hell yeah. And that is on page 238 of the Frick Em.

Yeah, Frick em.

I love it. And this is where I feel like Rose is finally starting to, like, unpack that emotional awareness as well as the. The logical awareness that she's had that this is not. Like, none of this is her fault. None of this is. She didn't cause this her being gay has no, should have no negative repercussions on her or on anyone else. Like, it's just part of who she is.

Yeah. Her being gay and her not being Christian anymore.

Yeah, sure. That too.

Yeah.

I, I, I, I, I, I liked how, you know, that was also put in there, but also the implication that, like, Saul is. And he as well, was not attacked, you know?

Yeah, for sure. And I also. And then. Sorry, Beth. And like, disrupting your narration. What's happening? They start running away, right at this point. They're like, they, they realize, oh, they're not attacking us. And they're like, let's get out here.

Let's book a scoop.

I think what's really funny, before they even realize that they're not being attacked. This is so good. Rose picks up a handgun and is trying to fire it. And then she, like, steadies herself to be like, I'm going to shoot it. Right. And the, the bullet gun jams. And Willow, just, like, from behind, steps up with a rifle and does her. Does some hot girl. Does. Well, causes a massive fucking fire that just lights everything aflame. It's, it's very nice.

Absolutely. I love this part too, because it, I love that because Rose is trying to explode a tank to give a barrier kind of to keep the demons further away. And she acknowledges. And this is Chuck Tingle acknowledging, like, tanks don't really explode the way they do in movies. But I love that they lampshade it and then immediately are like. But then Willow gets it to freaking explode. Like, it's so good.

So nice.

In this house, we suspend our disbelief.

Hell yeah.

Yeah. And after the tank explosion, we do get an encounter with Ben where he thinks he's gonna be all righteous and he gets taken down.

Oh, yeah. I have a couple of quotes for this as well, because this was my favorite, like, part of the whole, like, demon fight scene was first on page 242. And this is what I was talking about earlier with Rose's emotional realization at this point is she says, he's doing his best to exercise our demons, but the demons were never ours to begin with. We didn't summon them. We didn't nourish them. We didn't throw collars around their necks and train them. The victims of Camp Damascus were minding our own business when the, when these forces of darkness were thrust upon us and given a name. An act perpetrated by the congregation itself. And so I feel like she has logically, like, been here for a while, but I really feel like, and at an emotional level, this is when she finally realizes, like, oh no, like, literally nothing was our fault in this situation. It's this fucking guy.

Yeah.

And then I do have the description of when the demon takes. Yeah, it's Pastor Bend away. It's on page 243, because he's about to shoot these kids. And then one of the demons comes up and it says, the demon behind Pete Bend slams something in his upper back with a quick and powerful movement, immediately prompting the pastor's eyes to go wide in a spurt of deep crimson to eject from his lips. There's a hollow thump to accompany this movement, then a strange tearing sound as the demon swiftly pulls upward. The whole thing happens so fast it's difficult to fully grasp my mind reeling at the creature's brutal efficiency. It's using a tool of some kind. A metal scooping device attached to a handle and an oblong glass tube. In a matter of seconds, Pastor Ben's eyes pull back into his head, the wet spheres yanked through the rear of his skull, along with the man's brain and spinal column. He doesn't even have time to cry out in shock, emitting nothing more than a faint gurgle as his body collapses to the ground. Meanwhile, the demon clutches the bizarre tube like device with an audible click, sealing it tight. Light blue liquid blasting the glass cylinder with a powerful hissing injection, filling the container and completely submerging this precise selection of Pastor Ben's nervous system. His eyes bob and slide against the side of the glass, staring back at me as the demon abruptly turns and hauls them away. There are no eyelets left to narrow or widen, but I get the distinct impression that Pastor Ben is keenly aware of what's happening, still sensing the blue liquid as it sloshes around his brand new form.

So crazy. And then, like, further down, like, to really bookend the point, it goes. I have no doubt the culture of these monsters revolves around pain, punishment, and judgment. But once the church's shackles fall away, they answer to an even higher cosmic assessment of right and wrong. What that is, I'm not sure, but it certainly doesn't have a problem with gay people forcing bigoted views on others and ramming them through a destructive system of.

Of.

Conversion. Therapy, however, seems to be a massive ethical transgression. I love that.

I love how, like, I don't know how understated that that sentence is. A massive ethical transgression. Like, I don't know. It just. It feels like a very calm observation for the insanity that is happening around her. I love it.

It's.

It's so good. It's so good. Like, it's amazing characterization to be having this bonkers shit fest happening around them. And Rose is like, I think this is an ethical transgression.

Yeah. I love her.

Yeah. After the fight, they get to go off into the sunset and they finally get their kiss.

Yeah.

Very sweet. And it's a big. Yeah, it's a big moment for them because obviously this is the first time since they remember that they've gotten to do this. And as you pointed out earlier, Caius, I think you mentioned that Rose mentioned something about. Anyway, she's just very chaste and the kiss is, like, a big deal.

Yeah, I'll just. I can read this last section because I think it's really powerful, these last, like, few paragraphs. Willow steps next to me, and as she does, I turn to meet her gaze. Our eyes lock and suddenly a powerful urge overtakes my body. Hey, is all she says. A million little things communicated within the breathless tone of this singular word. I can't help the smile that works its way across my lips. An uncontrollable display of the lurking joy that bubbles its way to the surface and fully consumes me. We don't hesitate, refusing to wait a second longer before our lips meet in a passionate eruption. We melt into each other, all the stress and strain and fear that kept us at arm's length finally crumbling away. This is so much better than the memory of our last kiss. Not only thanks to the visceral warmth of her body against mine, but for the future that lies stretched out before us. This isn't just some hazy recollection that could dissipate at any moment. It's the real thing. Memories come and go, but the present is ours. Within the softness of her lips and the tickle of her hair as it frames my cheeks, I discover a safety unlike anything I've ever known. A sense of true acceptance. Meanwhile, the flames continue billowing into the sky behind. Behind us, a raging inferno where Camp Damascus once stood. The blaze is so large that its orange mountainside glow illuminates the entire Neverton Valley. My shadow stretches on for miles, fully engulfing the city below. I just love. I love. I love. I love the pacing there. I think it is so like ending a story is so hard. You know, I write and I read a lot and making an ending feel poignant and feel like it answers what it needs to incredibly difficult to do. And I think this perfectly, perfectly, perfectly encapsulates the entire book.

Yeah.

The thing I was thinking of before with the kiss is that the demons sort of tainted any memory or any time they would even think of any doing anything or any memories of even each other. The demons would quash that. So that's also why the kiss is significant. And for me, the ending, you're absolutely right that it's really hard to end things in a really satisfying way. And for me this was like a big sigh, like sigh of satisfaction. Like this is letting out of air.

Yeah. And it's. And it's doubly comforting for them because not only is this like the, the demons are gone and their, their demons have been gone for a while, but it's this knowledge that it's gone for everyone involved as well. It's just like comfort that like they've, they've done what, what I, what I find so important in activist work. They've lowered the ladder. They have created more ladder to go and let more people free and they'll keep doing that in whatever way they decide to.

Yeah. I fully agree with both of you on the ending. And I think honestly, my favorite part of the ending is that it feels like a beginning. It doesn't feel like an end for these characters. It doesn't feel like. And that's it. And you can't imagine a future for them. You can imagine the future for them and just the fact that they're going to be able to live their lives and be happy is so good and powerful and bringing that shadow back into it. Her shadow has gone from being invisible at the beginning of the book to almost not existing to stretching out over the entire city. And I love that for her.

Yeah. Amazing. So how would we rate the book after all that?

After all that? Caius.

Oh, you can do it on whatever scale you want.

Yeah.

We've had 5,000 point scales.

Yeah.

I think that this is a 420 mile long shadow of a book.

Hell yeah. I love that.

Very good. Perfect. I. Yeah. I think my criticism is in the. Not having enough characterization in Saul. Well, characterization and also like narration and involvement of Saul and Willow. I just felt like it just wasn't enough and I think we talked about that. I also, again, just. I hadn't, again, I hadn't read the back of the book, so I didn't know the, that they were going to go to Camp Damascus. I had like convinced myself partway through that they just weren't going to go.

So.

I'm not going to be like, they should get to the Action more quickly. But I just. It was. It came very late. I felt like there wasn't a lot of. Went out with a bang, but we just didn't get a lot of it. So that was my other one. But I would still say it's 400 out of 500.

Hell, yeah.

Hell, yeah. So we have 420 miles on no particular scale.

No scale. No scale. I like the book a lot. I think it's. It's a very good book. There's no perfect novels.

No, no, that's very fair. That's very fair. And I almost had a menti b the last time I tried to rate something because. Because Beth introduced the idea of ranking things compared to other things, and it completely ruined me.

I didn't do that this time. I didn't.

You didn't do that this time. So this is a. No, I am not. This is not in comparison to anything my rate. My ratings for books are based entirely on how I felt after I finished a book. So do I think that this is a perfect book? No, I don't think this is a perfect book. I do wish that there was more time spent with Saul and with Willow. I hope maybe Chuck Tingle comes out with books that expound upon that, because I think that'd be fantastic.

The Apocrypha of Willow. Oh, my gosh.

Exactly. But for me, this was a 5 out of 5 read because as soon as I finished the book, I. Before I even finished it, I purchased the next book that Chuck Tingle had written. And as soon as I closed it, I knew exactly how I felt about it, which is kind of a rare thing for me with books. Usually I have to process how I feel about a book for a while and kind of like, think about the meaning and stuff. And like we kind of alluded to at the beginning of this, this is not a subtle book. This is not, like, metaphorical. It is wearing everything on its sleeve. And I really appreciate that about it. And I think it's part of what gave it that five out of five for me. Because at the end I was just like, yeah, good for them. The lesbians ride off into the sunset together. Which I love because it's so rare to get a happy ending for queer people in books and in media overall, that when I do get it, I'm just like, this is perfect. I love it. It's great.

But genuinely, though, one might say that that's one of the points in barrier gaze. One might say that.

Who knows?

I haven't.

I did not read it during Our five minute potty break. So I. I don't know.

I think you'll love it.

I did read. Oh, I can plug it here. I did read. In my 5 minute potty break there is a. A new suggestion has hit the podcast. I read Man O war by Corey McCarthy. It is a YA like romance. Like it's realistic fiction. It's very sweet. It is about a trans character. He's Arab American. It's very sweet. I highly recommend it. If you liked Camp Damascus, if you like happy endings for queer people, and hey, if you don't know a lot about the trans experience, I think it's a pretty good intro. And if you do, I still think it's pretty nice to hear about maybe a different side of transitioning that isn't really explored. It's that early stages and how harmful and destructive they can be, especially when paired with teenagehood. Again, no book's perfect, but I liked it. I enjoyed it. That's my recommendation back to you.

Awesome. All right, now it's time to spin the wheel.

So excited to be here for this. I won't read it because I don't read anything.

Beth from the edit here. Marie and I had a chance to hang out in person recently and we watched the movie that started it all. So our next episode is going to be Marginalia about Alien Prometheus. So stay tuned for that and. And back to the past with Camp Damascus. Caius, is there anything else you want to plug?

Yeah. I'm a part of a podcast called nine Millimeter Retirement Radio. We are an actual play using the lore and system of Delta Green, set in the 1980s conspiracy era. We have side operas set in modern day and before the 1980s. I don't have a website yet because I keep forgetting to update it.

And we'll link to your Instagram.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, link to that Instagram. We also have a discord you can find me in. In the David Behavior discord I'm around. I sometimes will post a cheeky meme or two. I'm also guesting on two other podcasts this summer. One of them is called Stories and Lies and the other is Sorry, honey, I have to take this. I highly recommend listening to those podcasts. They're very fun, very cool groups. I'm so excited to have been a part of them. I'm also so grateful to the two of you for letting me come on this podcast. I did strong arm you into it maybe a little bit. I think you were going to anyway, but. But the second we were going to. The second you were like, oh, we have a podcast. I was like, do you take guests? I have a nice microphone and bad mic etiquette, but I have a nice microphone.

You gotta have one or the other, I feel like. And at least you have the nice mic.

Yeah, I hit my glasses against my mic a lot, so if people are ever wondering what, like, the weird echo sound is, that's me. That's me bonking my glasses against my pop filter.

Amazing. Well, I'm glad that you were able to join us. Yeah, this was a really fun book.

Yeah.

And maybe we can have you on for one of, like, your super depressing books in the future.

Yeah, I'll try to find. Listen, I'll try to find either if you have a, like, super obscure medievalist horror novel or something. That's just so sad and upsetting, I'll do that too.

Hell yeah.

I think we managed to make this one sad by talking about my childhood a lot, so.

All right, well, thanks for listening. If you want more from us, our social media is in the show notes as well as a link to our discord where you can join the conversation and suggest books. Looks just like Caius did.

Just like Kaia said, get out there and commit some David behavior. Bye.

Bye.

This is awesome.

I said yay, not bye. Whatever.